Power surges and lightning

[Gizmologist]

JJ 3000 I love westoms' claim that they "replaced every semiconductor" in every computer.

Evidently the man has no clue of the construction of a computer's MoBo, power supply, drives, etc. aside from the old wooden ones with a metal wire and little wooden balls.

But hey, a computer is a computer, right?

[westom]

Funny how he does not disagree with anything said about surge suppression at all levels.

Read what he has posted.  We agree.

1) UPS does not provide hardware protection; is for data protection.

2) 'Whole house' protection is essential.

3) Plug-in protectors are for low power - tiny - all but not destructive surges.  IEEE put numbers to it.  99.5% protection using proper earthing (whole house solution).  Another 0.2% protection from those plug-in protectors.

4)  The author discussed ferromagnetic protection.  I also discussed series mode filters.  Other solutions exist.  But none does so much protection for so little money as a properly earthed 'whole house' protector – and for a paltry $1 per appliance.  Nothing but a ‘whole house’ solution protects so many critical appliances that also need protection such as GFCIs, furnace, dishwasher, and (what is most needed when surges occur?)  smoke detector.

  Where are your manufacturer spec sheets that prove that plug-in protector is effective?  It does protect from a type of surge that is typically not destructive.  Why does the manufacturer not make the claims you have posted?  They would rather not admit what little is accomplished from something so expensive.  Plug-in protectors are for low power (rarely destructive) transients – but cost tens and 100 times more money.  The informed consumer instead installs a ‘whole house’ protector – to even protect plug-in protectors from surge damage.

[westom]

If the device creates surges, why don't you just unplug it, and run it from those surges. …

But what often happens with cheap supplies is that they are simply made to route the Power Good signal from the +5 volt rail. Now, the problem here is that the POWER_GOOD signal as far as the motherboard is concerned, is fine for a variantion  from +2.4V through +6.0V. By the time the +5V rail gets that distorted, it's too late.

This could result in either permanent hardware damage,

 What is your confused and disjointed nonsense about unplugging heavy appliances?  Those ‘surges’ exist only in junk science – and where the most electrically ignorant claim to be an *expert*.   Those ‘surges’ don’t exist in reality as demonstrated by five simple examples.  ‘Surges’ do exist when you invent fiction. Then prove your fiction with degrogatory remarks.

When did 2.4 to 6 volts become hardware destructive?  Well, you clearly did not learn electronics before posting.  Manufacturer datasheets are quite clear about this. Even 6 volts does not harm 5 volt electronics – had you read page one of every datasheet.

  Electronics design includes this routine testing.  Run AC voltage up and down to make sure electronics worked 100% normal even at voltage extremes.  All my designs work even at 85 volts (which is typical).  Below 85 volts was a point where power simply cut off.  And no power good signal exists.  But all that has suddenly changed.  Because the uneducated decreed otherwise, now all my design prototypes were self-destructing.   More nonsense posted by BC_Programmer who might have a high school diploma.

  Brownouts and low voltage never cause electronics damage.  But when a junk scientist uses observation tempered by wild speculation, has no design knowledge, never read datasheets, but always knows; then brownouts magically become destructive.  A warning to others about hardware myths routinely parroted by BC_Programmer.  A UPS is only for data protection.  A UPS provides no hardware protection from brownouts.  Brownouts do not cause electronics damage – no matter how many times he posts that lie.

  Numerous industry standards (including some for computer power supplies) state brownouts are not destructive.  Even in 1970, the voltage charts contained this phrase for ‘brownouts’: “No Damage Region”.   Decades before PCs existed, industry standards required low voltage to never cause damage.  And still, the naďve *know* otherwise.  

  BC_Programmers logic: I heard this is true; therefore it must be true.  No wonder the Silicon Valley needs so many immigrants from China and India to do the work.  BC_Programmer is a proud example of our education system.  He feels; therefore he *knows*.  He heard; therefore it must be true.

  Data protection (not hardware protection) is that UPS’s job.   Brownouts are harmful to motorized appliances; and are so normal to electronics that some electronics internally create brownouts during power up and power off.  Brownouts are normal – not destructive.

[BC_Programmer]

westom's logic:

"I am right. Everybody else is wrong. What I do not understand is copious; but at the same time non-existent. Those that disagree with me must have inferior education levels, regardless of how redundant any such assertion might be. I will assert my truth and refute any rebuttals by passing it off as junk science."


in short:

depends on the hardware. Take the typical, manufacturer made PC, with a excessively cheaply made power supply that sends POWER_GOOD without actually checking to see that the power is good for the motherboard. (this is far too common).

now imagine- there is a brownout on the line the PC is connected to- say it drops to 105 volts. Not too bad.

a typical power supply has a tolerance level- it can s maintain DC voltages at their proper levels when the power drops too low or goes to high momentarily. However, let's say there is a real brownout on the line- say, grandma just turned on the dryer.

the power dips to 105- and stays there. What SHOULD happen, is the power supply should revoke the POWER_GOOD signal, which puts the PC in a reboot loop.

But what often happens with cheap supplies is that they are simply made to route the Power Good signal from the +5 volt rail. Now, the problem here is that the POWER_GOOD signal as far as the motherboard is concerned, is fine for a variantion  from +2.4V through +6.0V. By the time the +5V rail gets that distorted, it's too late.

This could result in either permanent hardware damage, data corruption (as memory refresh cycle timings drop, the supplied power isn't enough during each Refresh, etc).


Now let's see here. What kind of power supply causes these problems to the PC? a Cheap one. Cheap. the very same kind of protection your professing in larger scale hardware yourself. So I think the real question is, if a 20$ power supply can't do what a 60$ one does- what makes you think that a 50$ whole house protector will do the job of a 100$ or 150$ one?

do you have an actual rebuttal to this? or just further blind assertions?


Or how about this?

Power-Protection Systems

Power-protection systems do just what the name implies: They protect your equipment from the effects of power surges and power failures. In particular, power surges and spikes can damage computer equipment, and a loss of power can result in lost data. In this section, you learn about the four primary types of power-protection devices available and when you should use them.

Before considering any further levels of power protection, you should know that a quality power supply already affords you a substantial amount of protection. High-end power supplies from the vendors I recommend are designed to provide protection from higher-than-normal voltages and currents, and they provide a limited amount of power-line noise filtering. Some of the inexpensive aftermarket power supplies probably do not have this sort of protection. If you have an inexpensive computer, further protecting your system might be wise.

Note:
All the power-protection features in the power supply inside your computer require that the computer's AC power cable be connected to a ground.

Many older homes do not have three-prong (grounded) outlets to accommodate grounded devices.

Do not use a three-pronged adapter (that bypasses the three-prong requirement and enables you to connect to a two-prong socket) to plug a surge suppressor, computer, or UPS into a two-pronged outlet. They often don't provide a good ground and can inhibit the capabilities of your power-protection devices.

You also should test your power sockets to ensure they are grounded. Sometimes outlets, despite having three-prong sockets, are not connected to a ground wire; an inexpensive socket tester (available at most hardware stores) can detect this condition.

Of course, the easiest form of protection is to turn off and unplug your computer equipment (including your modem) when a thunderstorm is imminent. However, when this is not possible, other alternatives are available.

Power supplies should stay within operating specifications and continue to run a system even if any of these power line disturbances occur:

• Voltage drop to 80V for up to 2 seconds
• Voltage drop to 70V for up to .5 seconds
• Voltage surge of up to 143V for up to 1 second

Most high-quality power supplies (or the attached systems) will not be damaged by the following occurrences:

• Full power outage
• Any voltage drop (brownout)
• A spike of up to 2,500V

Because of their internal protection, many computer manufacturers that use high-quality power supplies state in their documentation that external surge suppressors are not necessary with their systems.

To verify the levels of protection built in to the existing power supply in a computer system, an independent laboratory subjected several unprotected PC systems to various spikes and surges of up to 6,000V—considered the maximum level of surge that can be transmitted to a system through an electrical outlet. Any higher voltage would cause the power to arc to the ground within the outlet. None of the systems sustained permanent damage in these tests. The worst thing that happened was that some of the systems rebooted or shut down when the surge was more than 2,000V. Each system restarted when the power switch was toggled after a shutdown.

I do not use any real form of power protection on my systems, and they have survived near-direct lightning strikes and powerful surges. The most recent incident, only 50 feet from my office, was a direct lightning strike to a brick chimney that blew the top of the chimney apart. None of my systems (which were running at the time) were damaged in any way from this incident; they just shut themselves down. I was able to restart each system by toggling the power switches. An alarm system located in the same office, however, was destroyed by this strike. I am not saying that lightning strikes or even much milder spikes and surges can't damage computer systems—another nearby lightning strike did destroy a modem and serial adapter installed in one of my systems. I was just lucky that the destruction did not include the motherboard.

This discussion points out an important oversight in some power-protection strategies: Do not forget to provide protection from spikes and surges on the phone line.

The automatic shutdown of a computer during power disturbances is a built-in function of most high-quality power supplies. You can reset the power supply by flipping the power switch from on to off and back on again. Some power supplies even have an auto-restart function. This type of power supply acts the same as others in a massive surge or spike situation: It shuts down the system. The difference is that after normal power resumes, the power supply waits for a specified delay of 3–6 seconds and then resets itself and powers the system back up. Because no manual switch resetting is required, this feature might be desirable in systems functioning as network servers or in those found in other unattended locations.

The first time I witnessed a large surge cause an immediate shutdown of all my systems, I was extremely surprised. All the systems were silent, but the monitor and modem lights were still on. My first thought was that everything was blown, but a simple toggle of each system-unit power switch caused the power supplies to reset, and the units powered up with no problem. Since that first time, this type of shutdown has happened to me several times, always without further problems.



Surge Suppressors (Protectors)
The simplest form of power protection is any one of the commercially available surge protectors—that is, devices inserted between the system and the power line. These devices, which cost between $20 and $200, can absorb the high-voltage transients produced by nearby lightning strikes and power equipment. Some surge protectors can be effective for certain types of power problems, but they offer only very limited protection.

Surge protectors use several devices, usually metal-oxide varistors (MOVs), that can clamp and shunt away all voltages above a certain level. MOVs are designed to accept voltages as high as 6,000V and divert any power above 200V to ground. MOVs can handle normal surges, but powerful surges such as direct lightning strikes can blow right through them. MOVs are not designed to handle a very high level of power and self-destruct while shunting a large surge. These devices therefore cease to function after either a single large surge or a series of smaller ones. The real problem is that you can't easily tell when they no longer are functional. The only way to test them is to subject the MOVs to a surge, which destroys them. Therefore, you never really know whether your so-called surge protector is protecting your system.

Some surge protectors have status lights that let you know when a surge large enough to blow the MOVs has occurred. A surge suppressor without this status indicator light is useless because you never know when it has stopped protecting.

Underwriters Laboratories has produced an excellent standard that governs surge suppressors, called UL 1449. Any surge suppressor that meets this standard is a very good one and definitely offers a line of protection beyond what the power supply in your PC already offers. The only types of surge suppressors worth buying, therefore, should have two features:

• Conformance to the UL 1449 standard
• A status light indicating when the MOVs are blown

Units that meet the UL 1449 specification say so on the packaging or directly on the unit. If this standard is not mentioned, it does not conform. Therefore, you should avoid it.

Another good feature to have in a surge suppressor is a built-in circuit breaker that can be manually reset rather than a fuse. The breaker protects your system if it or a peripheral develops a short. These better surge suppressors usually cost about $40.

Phone Line Surge Protectors
In addition to protecting the power lines, it is critical to provide protection to your systems from any connected phone lines. If you are using a modem or fax board that is plugged into the phone system, any surges or spikes that travel through the phone line can damage your system. In many areas, the phone lines are especially susceptible to lightning strikes, which are the leading cause of fried modems and damage to the computer equipment attached to them.

Several companies manufacture or sell simple surge protectors that plug in between your modem and the phone line. These inexpensive devices can be purchased from most electronics supply houses. Most of the cable and communication product vendors listed in the Vendor List (on the DVD that accompanies this book) sell these phone line surge protectors. Some of the standard power line surge protectors include connectors for phone line protection as well.

Line Conditioners
In addition to high-voltage and current conditions, other problems can occur with incoming power. The voltage might dip below the level needed to run the system, resulting in a brownout. Forms of electrical noise other than simple voltage surges or spikes might travel through the power line, such as radio-frequency interference or electrical noise caused by motors or other inductive loads.

Remember two things when you wire together digital devices (such as computers and their peripherals):

Any wire can act as an antenna and have voltage induced in it by nearby electromagnetic fields, which can come from other wires, telephones, CRTs, motors, fluorescent fixtures, static discharge, and, of course, radio transmitters.

Digital circuitry responds with surprising efficiency to noise of even a volt or two, making those induced voltages particularly troublesome. The electrical wiring in your building can act as an antenna, picking up all kinds of noise and disturbances.

A line conditioner can handle many of these types of problems. A line conditioner is designed to remedy a variety of problems. It filters the power, bridges brownouts, suppresses high-voltage and current conditions, and generally acts as a buffer between the power line and the system. A line conditioner does the job of a surge suppressor, and much more. It is more of an active device, functioning continuously, rather than a passive device that activates only when a surge is present. A line conditioner provides true power conditioning and can handle myriad problems. It contains transformers, capacitors, and other circuitry that can temporarily bridge a brownout or low-voltage situation. These units usually cost $100–$300, depending on the power-handling capacity of the unit.

Backup Power
The next level of power protection includes backup power-protection devices. These units can provide power in case of a complete blackout, thereby providing the time necessary for an orderly system shutdown. Two types are available: the standby power supply (SPS) and the uninterruptible power supply (UPS). The UPS is a special device because it does much more than just provide backup power—it is also the best kind of line conditioner you can buy.

Standby Power Supplies
A standby power supply is known as an offline device: It functions only when normal power is disrupted. An SPS system uses a special circuit that can sense the AC line current. If the sensor detects a loss of power on the line, the system quickly switches over to a standby battery and power inverter. The power inverter converts the battery power to 120V AC power, which is then supplied to the system.

SPS systems do work, but sometimes a problem occurs during the switch to battery power. If the switch is not fast enough, the computer system shuts down or reboots anyway, which defeats the purpose of having the backup power supply. A truly outstanding SPS adds to the circuit a ferroresonant transformer, which is a large transformer with the capability to store a small amount of power and deliver it during the switch time. This device functions as a buffer on the power line, giving the SPS almost uninterruptible capability.


SPS units also might have internal line conditioning of their own. Under normal circumstances, most cheaper units place your system directly on the regular power line and offer no conditioning. The addition of a ferroresonant transformer to an SPS gives it extra regulation and protection capabilities because of the buffer effect of the transformer. SPS devices without the ferroresonant transformer still require the use of a line conditioner for full protection. SPS systems usually cost between a hundred and several thousand dollars, depending on the quality and power-output capacity.

Uninterruptible Power Supplies
Perhaps the best overall solution to any power problem is to provide a power source that is conditioned and that can't be interrupted—which is the definition of an uninterruptible power supply. UPSs are known as online systems because they continuously function and supply power to your computer systems. Because some companies advertise ferroresonant SPS devices as though they were UPS devices, many now use the term true UPS to describe a truly online system. A true UPS system is constructed in much the same way as an SPS system; however, because the computer is always operating from the battery, there is no switching circuit.

In a true UPS, your system always operates from the battery. A voltage inverter converts from 12V DC to 120V AC. You essentially have your own private power system that generates power independently of the AC line. A battery charger connected to the line or wall current keeps the battery charged at a rate equal to or greater than the rate at which power is consumed.

When the AC current supplying the battery charger fails, a true UPS continues functioning undisturbed because the battery-charging function is all that is lost. Because the computer was already running off the battery, no switch takes place and no power disruption is possible. The battery begins discharging at a rate dictated by the amount of load your system places on the unit, which (based on the size of the battery) gives you plenty of time to execute an orderly system shutdown. Based on an appropriately scaled storage battery, the UPS functions continuously, generating power and preventing unpleasant surprises. When the line power returns, the battery charger begins recharging the battery, again with no interruption.


Many SPS systems are advertised as though they are true UPS systems. The giveaway is the unit's switch time. If a specification for switch time exists, the unit can't be a true UPS because UPS units never switch. However, a good SPS with a ferroresonant transformer can virtually equal the performance of a true UPS at a lower cost.

UPS cost is a direct function of both the length of time it can continue to provide power after a line current failure and how much power it can provide. You therefore should purchase a UPS that provides enough power to run your system and peripherals and enough time to close files and provide an orderly shutdown. Remember, however, to manually perform a system shutdown procedure during a power outage. You will probably need your monitor plugged into the UPS and the computer. Be sure the UPS you purchase can provide sufficient power for all the devices you must connect to it.

Because of a true UPS's almost total isolation from the line current, it is unmatched as a line conditioner and surge suppressor. The best UPS systems add a ferroresonant transformer for even greater power conditioning and protection capability. This type of UPS is the best form of power protection available. The price, however, can be high. To find out just how much power your computer system requires, look at the UL sticker on the back of the unit. This sticker lists the maximum power draw in watts, or sometimes in just volts and amperes. If only voltage and amperage are listed, multiply the two figures to calculate the wattage.

As an example, if the documentation for a system indicates that the computer can require as much as 120V at a maximum current draw of 5 amps, the maximum power the system can draw is about 550 watts. This wattage is for a system with every slot full, two hard disks, and one floppy—in other words, a system at the maximum possible level of expansion. The system should never draw any more power than that; if it does, a 5-amp fuse in the power supply will blow. This type of system usually draws an average of 300 watts. However, to be safe when you make calculations for UPS capacity, be conservative; use the 550-watt figure. Adding a monitor that draws 100 watts brings the total to 650 watts or more. Therefore, to run two fully loaded systems, you'd need a 1,100-watt UPS. And don't forget two monitors, each drawing 100 watts. Therefore, the total is 1,300 watts. A UPS of that capacity or greater costs approximately $500–$700. Unfortunately, that is what the best level of protection costs. Most companies can justify this type of expense only for critical-use PCs, such as network servers.

In addition to the total available output power (wattage), several other factors can distinguish one UPS from another. The addition of a ferroresonant transformer improves a unit's power conditioning and buffering capabilities. Good units also have an inverter that produces a true sine wave output; the cheaper ones might generate a square wave. A square wave is an approximation of a sine wave with abrupt up-and-down voltage transitions. The abrupt transitions of a square wave are not compatible with some computer equipment power supplies. Be sure that the UPS you purchase produces power that is compatible with your computer equipment. Every unit has a specification for how long it can sustain output at the rated level. If your systems draw less than the rated level, you have some additional time.

Some of the many sources of power protection equipment include American Power Conversion (APC), Tripp Lite, and Best Power. These companies sell a variety of UPS, SPS, line, and surge protector products.

of course, your opinion on the quote is irrelevant, because you are clearly a troll.

[westom]

JJ 3000 I love westoms' claim that they "replaced every semiconductor" in every computer.

Again demonstrates why stereo installers need not know how electricity works.  And why America needs so many immigrants from India and China to do the work.

  I said, “replacing every damaged semiconductor”.   With simple electrical knowledge, then you would know that is only a few semiconductors.  And you also know *why* so few components are damaged – from a concept even taught in second grade science class.

  But reality is not his popular myth.  A junk scientist sees damage.  Then *knows* a surge damages all motherboard ICs.  Nonsense.  Very few components are damaged during a surge that passed through the motherboard to find earth, destructively, via the network. Gizmologist would have known that with basic electrical knowledge, with surge experience, OR by first reading what was actually posted.  Instead, he only reads what he wants to read.  Since you *know* without first learning facts, you even recommended Monster Cable (and other so called ‘high quality’) surge protectors. 

  Only the most technically ignorant believe surges damage "every semiconductor".   You assumed because, and again, due to near zero electrical knowledge.   Explains why you recommend what even the manufacturer will not claim.  Had you read what was written (rather than intentionally distort), that quote would read, "replacing every damaged semiconductor".  But that means learning rather than parroting what you were told to believe by a sales brochures. That means being honest.   Honesty also explains why you also cannot quote what was really written; cannot even grasp how electricity really works.

  Those who recommend plug-in protectors and UPSes will read selectively.   Where is that manufacturer spec that claims protection?  Still not provided for one obvious and simple reason.   Even the manufacturer will not claim what urban myth purveyors routinely post.  Only the most technically ignorant (and dishonest) will refuse to post even one manufacturer numeric specification.   One who cannot accurately quote four words should have no problem inventing manufacturer specs.  Oh.  Inventing numbers means one must have minimal electrical knowledge.  Could be too difficult for the many naysayers.

  Many plug-in protectors (in fine print) admit that reality.  “Does not protect from lightning”.  Why install surge protectors?  To protect from direct lightning strikes and from all other lesser surges.  Why would anyone recommend a protector that does not protect?  Selective reading.   Misquoting.  Insufficient knowledge.  Dishonesty.  Excessive ego.  No education (even forgot second grade science).  Does not know how electricity works. Which means he can hang speakers for a living.

  Also explains why Monster Cable identified an obscenely profitable market selling both plug-in protectors and ‘speaker wire with polarity’ to *experts* such as Gizmologist.  No wonder America needs so many immigrants to do work that requires an education (including second grade science).  He cannot even quote a few words in a sentence without getting it wrong.  Honesty is not the naysayers.

  Meanwhile, informed consumers upgrade household earthing to meet and exceed post 1990 code. Then spend tens or 100 times less money for one ‘whole house’ protector.  Informed consumers are too smart  to fall for Gizmologist’s scams and constant insults.  Informed consumers install what has been proven effective for the past 100+ years.  Amazing how the kids know that 100 years of knowledge is wrong.  Selective reading.  Misquoting.  Posting insults.  Perfect examples of a plug-in protector spokesman.  No wonder the Silicon Valley must go to India and China for their employees.  Gizmologist is too busy.
 

[Gizmologist]

BC programmer is right, you're nothing but a sad little troll.

 Go put on the tin foil; hat and watch your collection of Flash Gordon movies.

[westom]

BC programmer is right, you're nothing but a sad little troll.

  Again, your high school diploma is showing.  Is it really counterfeit?

  Where is that manufacturer spec that claims protection?  No product recommended by Gizmologist (or BC_Programmer) claims that protection.  Why do THEY know it works?  Hitler’s Brown Shirts also knew Jews were vermin only because they were told how to think.  Amazing how many know only the first thing they are told.  Then disparage others to prove themselves.

  Knowledge based only in hate and insults is alive and well.    Knowledge based in education and numbers?  No wonder the Silicon Valley needs so many employees from India and China.

Where is that manufacturer spec that claims protection?  Reading the fine print, some will admit that it does not protect from typically destructive surges.  With eyes glazed over in hate, he could not quote accurately and he did not see that fine print warning.  No problem.  He *knows*.   Meanwhile, a protector is only as effective as its earth ground – no matter how many times he posts personal attacks. 

Gizmologist recommended ineffective and obscenely expensive protectors, with no earthing, that include products such as Monster Cable.

  An informed consumer can purchase one effective ‘whole house’ protector from a long list of more responsible companies including Keison, Polyphaser, Leviton, Siemens, Square D, General Electric, Intermatic, and Cutler-Hammer.  A Cutler-Hammer ‘whole house’ protector sells for less than $50 in Lowes.  A protector is only as effective as its earth ground which is why household earthing is upgraded to meet and exceed post 1990 code requirements.

[patio]

I've seen enough...

Topic Closed.