Turn off computer during thunderstorms?

[sandra]

Hello folks,

shall i switch off my pc when there's a thunderstorm?

Could it be damaged when the house is hit by lightning? Or the DSL-box somewhere on the street?

What 's opinion?

[Mulreay]

Yes it can be damaged but I doubt it. That's what fuses were invented for.

[Allan]

Well, what will happen if the power goes out is the system will go through an improper (hard) shutdown. It's unlikely to do permanent damage, but it can cause some file anomalies that running chkdsk /r will fix. But to answer your question - yes, it's a good idea to shut it down during a thunderstorm. Better safe than sorry

[smeezekitty]

it coul cause damage
but there are protection curucits on the lines
besides turning it off really wont stop power flow
if you are worryed unplug cabel, phone andd power wires

[Quantos]

Hello folks,

shall i switch off my pc when there's a thunderstorm?

Could it be damaged when the house is hit by lightning? Or the DSL-box somewhere on the street?

What 's opinion?

ALWAYS disconnect any electronics from the power system during a lightning storm.
If they are worth worrying about, then they are worth disconnecting.

The lightning doesn't have to do damage to the power circuitry itself, and very few surge protectors are effective against a ground spike.

[Ugarte]

Back in the day, I lost a computer from lightning.  I was in the habit of shutting off my computer during thunderstorms, and naturally, I had it running from a surge protector, so I thought I was safe.  What I had not realized at the time, was that my dial-up internet connection, which had a phone-line going straight from the wall jack to the computer, did not go through a surge protector, and was therefore an easy target, so to speak.  Sure enough, lightning struck a telephone pole, which sent a surge right through the phone line and killed the computer, with nothing but a small black scorchmark on the end of the phone-line to hint at what had happened.

Having the computer flicker on and off with your lights is certainly not a good thing, so I'd reccommend shutting it off and making sure *all* possible routes to your computer are protected.  However, this is one of those "Do as I say, not as I do" situations, as I stopped proper safety procedures long ago, and don't let the storms change my activities 

[Mulreay]

You guy's are really unlucky!

[alexK]

We used to have a cottage in the Ottawa valley (famous for its severe thunder storms). During one of these storms we saw sparks jumping out of the poweroutlets.

Not to create paranoia, but it is a good idea to unplug the powersupply from the wall outlets to your electronics including telephone and cable during a bad thunderstorm.
 

[Aegis]

Sandra:

A lot depends on the electrical service where you live.  In my former living location, power outages were rare, even during storms.  I rarely worried about shutting down systems which were in use.  Where I live now, outages due to weather are more frequent, and I will at least power down the system if I think the power is going to go out.

Lightning strikes and surges do happen.  I probably don't worry about those as much as I should.

[truenorth]

If one is to learn from experience the best kind is the experience of others.That being said not long before we had our 1st computer (an Apple 2e) we had a close by lightening strike during a thunderstorm. Every single electrical devise that had a filament in it (on or not) had that filament destroyed. Ever since then when we know a thunderstorm is approaching we UNPLUG everything we can that we want to protect. Sure it may never happen again (lightening NEVER strikes twice) But!!!!!!!!!! truenorth

[Aegis]

No, you're right, True.  It's a good precautionary measure to take -- especially when so much might be plugged into a power strip, and removing one plug can protect several devices.

[patio]

You guy's are really unlucky!

Not unlucky...just reality.
Lost 3 machines over the years to TStorms...

[smeezekitty]

lightening NEVER strikes twice

extreamly unlikely
but impossable to be never

[kpac]

If you use dial-up, then you should un-plug the cord from the wall.

[patio]

No matter what type of connection you have the power and any network connection should be unplugged...

[Mulreay]

Very true to both Patio and Kpac but we rarely get the storms of which you speak in England so my computer stays plugged in no matter what. I suppose it depends on population and building density.

[smeezekitty]

No matter what type of connection you have the power and any network connection should be unplugged...

agreed
fried a modem that way
had it pluged into phone line and there was a fair amount of lightning outside
next day the modem didnt work

[Quantos]

Population and building density don't make much of a factor.  Where you are the weather just doesn't build up to lightning very readily.

[kpac]

Very true to both Patio and Kpac but we rarely get the storms of which you speak in England so my computer stays plugged in no matter what. I suppose it depends on population and building density.

Heh, we had a storm here today just over the water...

[patio]

We tend to get huge TStorms here...and lot's of them...
Even in the dead of Winter ...which is rare.

[Quantos]

We tend to get huge TStorms here...and lot's of them...
Even in the dead of Winter ...which is rare.

That's what it used to be like in Ferny.

You're in Quebec right?  Are you guys planning any major ice storms this year?

[Mulreay]

Heh, we had a storm here today just over the water...

Where are you Kpac?

[Salmon Trout]

extreamly unlikely
but impossable to be never

The Empire State Building gets struck around 100 times a year.

[Mulreay]

The Empire State Building gets struck around 100 times a year.

I think most people don't live up as high as the empire states building though!

[kpac]

Where are you Kpac?

Over the water? Approximately 26 miles at closest.

[soybean]

I have a computer here that belonged to a friend.  It was in use during a storm and it was ruined by a power surge. I believe they were not using a surge protector on it but, of course, even surge protectors can only offer a limited degree of protection.

My mother's older computer had an internal dialup modem ruined by a storm, even though the telephone line was routed through a surge protector with phone line protection.  Fortunately, no other components were damaged. 

Aside from thunderstorms, power fluctuations can be caused by other factors.  I live in a community which has grown rapidly in the last 15 - 20 years.  I believe construction activity, particularly the connecting of electrical power to new buildings, can cause power fluctuations in a local area.  That's why I use a UPS with my main system.   

[kpac]

That's why I use a UPS with my main system.

Yeah, I've seen those. How long do they keep the PC running for?

[soybean]

Well, the time may vary quite a bit, depending on the cost of the unit.  I just looked at a unit sold by newegg.com. It's this one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16842111038  The specs say: Full load runtime: 3.5 minutes (550VA); Half load runtime: 10 minutes (275VA).  That's not very long but, when properly setup with a computer, the computer will be properly shutdown before the battery runs out.  So, you don't need to worry about improper shutdown if you are not there when it happens.

[kpac]

Okay, thanks. A very useful component.

[westom]

I was in the habit of shutting off my computer during thunderstorms, and naturally, I had it running from a surge protector, so I thought I was safe.  What I had not realized at the time, was that my dial-up internet connection, which had a phone-line going straight from the wall jack to the computer, did not go through a surge protector, and was therefore an easy target, so to speak.  Sure enough, lightning struck a telephone pole, which sent a surge right through the phone line and killed the computer,

  So why did that surge ignore a surge protector on every phone line (installed free by the telco) to damage your modem?  It did not.  Your conclusions are a perfect example of why observation alone leads to erroneous conclusions.

  Surge entered on AC mains seeking earth ground.  That power strip protector simply shunted (shared, connected, distributed) the surge to all other wires.  Now a surge has a path to earth by bypassed protection in the power supply.  Through motherboard and dial-up modem to earth ground via a telco installed 'whole house' protector.

1) You had damage because you permitted a surge into the building. Once inside, that energy hunts for earth ground via appliances.

2) All appliances have effective surge protection.  But your protector simply bypassed protection in the computer’s power supply.

3) You assumed based only on observation.  How junk science is created.  You did not first learn fundamental principles which are also required to make a conclusion.  For example, you did not even know that all phone lines already have an earthed ‘whole house’ protector;  phone lines already have surge protection.

4) A protector located too close to appliances and too far from earth ground may even earth surges destructively through nearby appliances.  What does a protector do?  Divert surge energy to earth ground where it can cause no harm.  But your protector had no such earth connection.

5) You assumed the plug-in protector provides protection.  Even the manufacturer does not claim that protection.  Will it stop what three miles of sky could not.  Will it few joules absorb a surge that is hundreds of thousands of joules?  You assumed that.

Point 5 specifically answer the OPs question.

That protector did not provide protection, did what its manufacturer's spec claim, AND may have contributed to modem damage.

[Quantos]

  So why did that surge ignore a surge protector on every phone line (installed free by the telco) to damage your modem?  It did not.  Your conclusions are a perfect example of why observation alone leads to erroneous conclusions.

It probably did.  That's why it's a bad idea to use phones in a lightning storm.  Cordless are okay, but hard wired land lines are a bad idea.  The surge protectors that the telco's use are not intended to stop lightning strikes any more than home use surge protectors.

[Salmon Trout]

Thanks for the lecture, westom. We sure needed that. 

[rthompson80819]

the only predictable thing about lightning is that it is totally unpredictable.

i was once at a friends house when lightning struck very close by.  it blew an unused telephone jack 15' across the room but nothing else was damaged.

most ups units provide better surge protection than the average surge protector and they eliminate small power outages.

[Quantos]

most ups units provide better surge protection than the average surge protector and they eliminate small power outages.

Yes, but won't affect what's called a 'Brown Out'.  For those you would need a Power Conditioner.  I actually recommend running one with a UPS anyway.

[westom]

the only predictable thing about lightning is that it is totally unpredictable. ...
most ups units provide better surge protection than the average surge protector and they eliminate small power outages.

And then we would arrive to discover why that surge damage was directly traceable to human failure.  The analysis starts with earth ground - what the surge seeks.

  Most UPS have near zero protection.  However, if you have the rare exception, then post those manufacturer spec numbers that claim it will somehow stop what three miles of sky could not.

  How many joules in a typical UPS?  Even less than in a power strip protector.  How do a few hundred joules in a UPS absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules?  That is effective protection?  No.  That is how myths promote the UPS as a surge protector.

Small power outages do not harm hardware.  The UPS is for data protection  - so that small outages do not delete unsaved data.

  What does a power conditioner protect from?  There is no engineering term for power conditioner.  “Power Conditioner” is a sales term fo curing electrical anomalies.  Which anomaly?  As long as they don’t say, then a naïve consumer will assume it solves 'all' electrical anomalies.  Nothing does that.  Different anomlies must be solved in different locations.  Many anomalies are made irrelevant by protection inside power supplies.   Only those who understood the executive summary - previously described as a lecture - would know that "power conditioner" is one way to sell a scam to those who don’t want to know.

  Lightning is quite predictable which is why facilities all over the world for the past 100 years suffer direct lightning strikes without damage - even to a protector.  Well proven concept that Franklin demonstrated in 1752.  And still some forget what was taught in 2nd grade science.  Protection has always been about earthing surges - not found in some magic box "power conditioner". A protector is only as effective as its earth ground which is why no plug-in UPS claims to and cannot provide surge protection.

[Quantos]

To quote Broni...

*sigh*

[westom]

  That's why it's a bad idea to use phones in a lightning storm. 

 So that is why telcos all over the world cut off phone service during every thunderstorm?  They must protect their $milliions computer.  Oh?  Telco computers all over the world connected to overhead wires all over town do not disconnect?  You mean direct lightning strikes never cause damage?  Operators do not remove headsets and leave the room when thunderstorms approach?

  Of course not.  Effective protection was routine even 100 years ago.  Surge protectors earth direct lightning strikes so that even operators and electronic switching computers are not at risk.  But that was only well proven 100 years ago.  A protector is made effective by its earth ground. No earth ground means no effective protection.

  No surge protector stops lightning.  Only protector worth spending money on makes direct lightning strikes harmless - even to the protector. Effective protection means nobody even knew the surge existed.  Ineffective protectors sell a obscene profit margins because the niave 'feel' it will stop what three miles of sky could not.

[Mulreay]

Oh my word are you writing a book or something? 

[Quantos]

I just have to say this.

Put down the pipe and get off your high bloody horse.  You do NOT know everything, as badly as you seem to want to.

[westom]

Put down the pipe and get off your high bloody horse.  You do NOT know everything, as badly as you seem to want to.

So you admit you have no knowledge or facts.  So you attack the messenger.  That is what extremist are taught.  Don't provide facts or numbers.  Don't even know anything about the topic.  Just make wild claims.  Then attack anyone who exposes those myths.

  Routine is to have direct lightning strikes without damage even to a protector.  But that means the human first learned a 100+ year old technology. The effective protector makes that short (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to single point earth ground. Earths direct lightning strikes – and remains functional.  A scam protector does not even claim protection in its numeric specs.

  Will switching a computer off protect it?  Will millimeters in a power switch stop what three miles of sky could not?  Of course not.  That is protection by ‘stopping a surge’.  Not possible.  Either energy gets harmlessly dissipated in earth – does not enter the building.  Or that surge hunts for earth ground destructively via any appliance – powered off or on.

  Power strip and UPSes that will somehow stop or absorb surges?  Nonsense promoted only for massive profits.  Either that surge gets earthed or it may find earth destructive via computers – powered on or off.  A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.  So telcos, commercial broadcasters, military bases, munitions dumps, refineries, rocket launch factilities (and responsible homeowners) earth a ‘whole house’ protector where a wire enters the building.  Then use a telephone even during thunderstorms.

[smeezekitty]

whats wrong with you weston

[Quantos]

It probably did.  That's why it's a bad idea to use phones in a lightning storm.  Cordless are okay, but hard wired land lines are a bad idea.  The surge protectors that the telco's use are not intended to stop lightning strikes any more than home use surge protectors.

Did you actually read and comprehend what I said here?

I don't make any claims about the ability of a surge protector to stop lightning.  In my post prior I actually support the unplugging of devices.

I am talking about lightning strikes passing down phone lines(which are more than happy to let it) and ELECTROCUTING people.

I hate explaining what I mean when it is laid out pretty plainly.

[kpac]

I hate explaining what I mean when it is laid out pretty plainly.

At least it's nice to see that westom is looking after people with poor eyesight.

[BC_Programmer]

I'm fairly certain that a "Surge protector" only really helps for "surges", not necessarily lightning strikes. More helpful for those areas where AC seems to fluctuate within the tolerable range (110-125, I think it is), or even outside it.

Also I think that it works by shunting -as you've said- the power to the ground circuit rather then allowing it through to the devices that are connected to it. Not certain though.

I have fairly reliable power and seldom have a thunderstorm, and the main reason I got a "surge protector" was really because I needed more plugs then I had available, not because I coveted any "protection".

[Salmon Trout]

surge protectors are good against switching surges and the like on your AC line, caused by operation of power company equipment. They are useless against lightning.

[Mulreay]

You could always run your entire house from a generator then stick the house and generator inside a Faraday cage... that should do it!

[westom]

surge protectors are good against switching surges and the like on your AC line, caused by operation of power company equipment. They are useless against lightning.

  Why is the benchmark for surge protection the lightning strike?  MOV datasheets use the classic lightning strike waveform (8/20 usecs) for data sheet parameters.  They use lightning strike waveforms defined by ANSI C62.xx.  Why would they use lightning parameters if the surge protector is not for direct lightning strikes? MOVs (the active component in a surge protector) is rated for lightning surges.

  Why do protectors list ANSI/IEEE C62.xx?  Because surge protectors are for lightning protection.  Why do all telcos for the past 100 years routinely install earthed protectors?  Because lightning was always the major threat even to operators with headsets.  Effective surge protectors were installed for lightning protection.  Telephones had to operate constantly during every thunderstorm – without damage and without harm to humans.

  Plug-in protectors are useless for lightning and for other surges.  Some plug-in protectors sold in other nations are required to include this phrase, “Does not protect from lightning.”  What does the effective protector do?  Protect from the rare surge (maybe once ever seven years) that may overwhelm protection inside every appliance.

  Surges too small to overwhelm that internal protection will destroy some plug-in protectors.  Grossly undersizing a protector gets the naive to promote them.  To believe protector failure is normal operation.

  Only the naïve believe unplugging is reliable.  At best, a human is only available one hour in three.  Many surges occur unexpected.  Even in the 1920s, Ham radio operators would disconnect their antenna and put that lead in a mason jar.  And still suffer damage.  Damage only stopped when the antenna lead was earthed – the reliable solution.

  Once inside the house, surges go hunting for earth destructively via appliances.  Things such as wooden tables are electrically conductive.  Current flows even through concrete and linoleum.  Who knows what these currents are flowing through.  More reasons why effective protection is not disconnecting; why effective protection is earthing that energy before it can enter the building.

  We install surge protectors to make direct lighting strike irrelevant.  Then other lesser surges are also made further irrelevant.  Protection is defined by the single point earth ground.

[Mulreay]

Has anyone seen the 'neverending story'? Great film 

[westom]

You could always run your entire house from a generator then stick the house and generator inside a Faraday cage...

 Creating a Faraday cage is, essentially, what 'whole house' protection does.  Properly earthed currents do not travel destructively through appliances inside the house.  Well proven concept is to keep massive currents outside the building.

[Salmon Trout]

surges go hunting for earth destructively via appliances.

Suppose they find a drink and a snack, say pizza and beer, will  they be satisfied and go away?

[Mulreay]

Suppose they find a drink and a snack, say pizza and beer, will  they be satisfied and go away?

 

[westom]

Suppose they find a drink and a snack, say pizza and beer, will  they be satisfied and go away?

   Depends on the conductivity of that drink.  Electrons are very picky.

[Aegis]

Beer would be good.  Distilled water would not be good for electrons.   

[BC_Programmer]

that's like when the atom lost an electron. I asked if he was sure, and he said, "yes, I'm positive"

[smeezekitty]

hahaha
your funny

[Mulreay]

hahaha
your funny

Oh my word BC has a groupy!!

[kpac]

that's like when the atom lost an electron. I asked if he was sure, and he said, "yes, I'm positive"

Is that covalent or ionic?

[patio]

Ionic.

[Aegis]

Ironic, isn't it?   

I'm sorry, I'm sorry!