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Author Topic: Hard Core Graphics Card  (Read 3319 times)

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the_mad_joker

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    Hard Core Graphics Card
    « on: February 01, 2010, 06:49:39 AM »
    Hi  ;D

    I Need A Graphics Card For  O:)HEAVY GAMING O:)

    Presently I Have palit nvidia 9400 gt

    I Want to Know That Is 9 series (9400,9800) Better Or ATI's 4800

    Dont Ask Budget ! It Could Be A Lot  (|


    Crosshair



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      Re: Hard Core Graphics Card
      « Reply #1 on: February 01, 2010, 01:14:36 PM »
      The absolute best gaming card is ATI's 5970.
      Does that help? :)
      Yes.  A female geek.  How surprising.

      patio

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      Re: Hard Core Graphics Card
      « Reply #2 on: February 01, 2010, 03:13:47 PM »
      " Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "

      Crosshair



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        Re: Hard Core Graphics Card
        « Reply #3 on: February 02, 2010, 12:24:10 PM »
        http://www.evga.com/articles/00514/
        Not to be rude but that's a midrange card at best.  It's a little faster than a 9600GT, itself an older midrange card.
        Yes.  A female geek.  How surprising.

        BC_Programmer


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        Re: Hard Core Graphics Card
        « Reply #4 on: February 02, 2010, 12:59:55 PM »
        a few nvidia cards:


                        GF 9500 GT      GF GT 220       GF GT 240       EVGA GT 240 SC  GF 9600 GT      GF 9800 GT
        Shader units    32              48              96              96              64              112
        ROPs            8               8               8               8               16              16
        GPU             G96             GT216           GT215           GT215           G94             G92
        Transistors     314M            486M            727M            727M            505M            754M
        Mem Size        256/512 MB      512/1024 MB     512/1024MB      512 MB          512/1024MB      512/1024MB
        Memory Width    128-bit         128-bit         128-bit         128-bit         256-bit         256-bit
        Memory bandw    25.6 GB/s       25.3 GB/s       54.4 GB/s       57.4 GB/s       57.6 GB/s       57.6GB/s
        Core Clock      550 MHz         625 MHz         550 MHz         550 MHz         650 MHz         600 MHz
        Memory Clock    800 MHz         790 MHz         1700MHz         1800 MHz        900 MHz         900 MHz
        Shader Clock    1400MHz         1360MHz         1340MHz         1340 MHz        1625MHz         1500MHz


        The fact that the 9600 uses a different GPU entirely then the GTX 240 kind of precludes the latter from being simply a faster version of the former.

        ATI 5970:


        transistors:      4308
        interface:        PCIe 2.1 x16
        max memory:       2048
        Core Mhz:         725
        Memory Mhz:       1000
        Texture fillrate: 116
        Pixel fillrate:   46.4
        bandwidth GB/s:   256
        mem type:         GDDR5
        memory Bus width: 2x256
        DirectX:          11
        OpenCL:           1.0
        OpenGL:           3.2
        GFLOPS:           4640
        TDP Idle:         51W
        TDP max:          294W
        Features:         Dual GPU solution on single PCB, Angle independent anisotropic filtering, Eyefinity



        certainly a excellent card by any means.

        However, is it the best? that certainly depends. Without a perfect understanding of how the GPU and various memory pipelines work with various cards, it's impossible to come to a conclusion that has no chance of being superceded when new information becomes available.

        A prime example is the fact that many manufacturers "cheat" on benchmark tests, just as they cheat on WHQL certification. How do they do that? quite simple; the driver simply looks at the program that is running, if it's a well known benchmark app, it "enables dubious optimizations" to increase it's score. cheating at WHQL is even easier; they simply package the driver in an installer that sets a key to not enable any form of optimization; this prevents any sort of issue, and WHQL doesn't care about pixel fillrates or anything like that, but only wether the driver works, they get a passing score. then they package that exact same signed driver into another installer that sets a registry key to enable dubious optimizations, optimizations not tested by the WHQL, of course, so they get the best of both worlds.

        Now, this practice is not something you see today, but on the other hand, it's impossible to tell. perhaps they simply made these "dubious optimizations" less obvious? perhaps when one card simply edges out another, we should consider that maybe the card that seems to perform better is really taking shortcuts.

        Yet another example; back in teh early days of windows 95, when DirectDraw was just taking shape; for the most part, everything worked. but for some cards, DirectDraw would completely bork when using certain features that the video card claimed to support. The cause was in fact that the driver was ALWAYS saying it supported the feature. Basically, a certain driver function was called, essentially, "doessupportfeature" and the driver was simply returning true no matter what.

        MS had to workaround the laziness of these shortcut takers. One of the DDraw dev team members took a seldom used PC on campus, generated a GUID with it, smashed the network card (thus guaranteeing that that GUID will never be generated again) and made a function that called the "doessupportfeature" function of the driver with that GUID. basically, if it returned true, then DirectDraw would go, "AHA! caught you! now I'll never believe what you say" and took a careful route that avoided any non-standard features the driver otherwise claimed to support. This had far-reaching consequences for the driver manufacturer, who, originally probably made the function in the interest of "optimization" and now finds that all the stuff they actually do support is no longer being used because directdraw has confirmed that it cannot trust the driver. So they had to rewrite the driver to actually flesh out the function to work properly.

        What does this have to do with the topic? well, not a whole lot, but it goes to show that the performance of a card weighs heavily on the quality of the driver itself; a newer card can be outperformed by an older one simply because they are using different drivers.

        Of course, in this case I don't think anything could outperform a ATI 5970, but given that you have to consider wether the manufacturers are *really* not cheating at benchmarks or wether they simply are able to hide it a lot better? nobody can really tell...

        Also, I better mention that some of the above re: directdraw stuff was from Raymond Chen's excellent book "the old new thing".
        I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

        Crosshair



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          Re: Hard Core Graphics Card
          « Reply #5 on: February 02, 2010, 02:22:28 PM »
          Quote
          The fact that the 9600 uses a different GPU entirely then the GTX 240 kind of precludes the latter from being simply a faster version of the former.
          I didn't say it was.  I said it was a little faster than the 9600GT.  Sorry to have confused you, I didn't realise I wasn't clear enough.
          And, not to be nit picky, but it's a GT240.

          I also don't understand how driver optimizations and programming shortcuts come into this discussion.  The ATI 5970 is the best performing gaming card currently available to my knowledge, however if I'm incorrect I apologise and will gladly stand corrected, I'm always willing to learn.  I can understand that yes, sometimes drivers are optimized to "cheat" on certain benchmarks, however if a card performs better across the board, I would call that better performance.  Whether this is due to a technically more capable card or better drivers is largely irrelevant as far as I can see, again though I'm willing to stand corrected.
          Yes.  A female geek.  How surprising.

          BC_Programmer


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          Re: Hard Core Graphics Card
          « Reply #6 on: February 02, 2010, 04:19:22 PM »
          I didn't say it was.  I said it was a little faster than the 9600GT.  Sorry to have confused you, I didn't realise I wasn't clear enough.
          And, not to be nit picky, but it's a GT240.

          I also don't understand how driver optimizations and programming shortcuts come into this discussion.  The ATI 5970 is the best performing gaming card currently available to my knowledge, however if I'm incorrect I apologise and will gladly stand corrected, I'm always willing to learn.  I can understand that yes, sometimes drivers are optimized to "cheat" on certain benchmarks, however if a card performs better across the board, I would call that better performance.  Whether this is due to a technically more capable card or better drivers is largely irrelevant as far as I can see, again though I'm willing to stand corrected.

          With regards to a card being better then another; consider the following scenario; let's say we have, manufacturer A and manufacturer B.

          manufacturer A releases their "top of the line" graphics card. Manufacturer B does as well.

          Now, the manufacturer A card is technically superior in every possible way.

          But Manufacturer B's card outperforms it at everything.

          So everybody buys the B card.

          Then manufacturer A releases a driver update that fixes the bugs in their driver that were causing the issues; and bam, it's now, like, 2 times faster then the B card.

          That's basically what I mean; the driver itself is merely the software side and that is easily changed later on; the cards themselves remain constant, so if a technically superior card is set back by shoddy drivers, this can often turn around if the vendor releases an updated version. I wasn't really saying that this was the case for the 5670, just that saying "X card is the best" is not always true.

          I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

          dahlarbear



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            Re: Hard Core Graphics Card
            « Reply #7 on: February 02, 2010, 05:35:29 PM »
            Quote
            Louis, I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship.
            From the American film "Casablanca", 1942.

            Eric1611



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              Re: Hard Core Graphics Card
              « Reply #8 on: February 03, 2010, 08:20:23 AM »
              I have even heard that there are motherboards where you can plug-in multiple grafics cards,I believe AS-Rock make such a board(The P-55M Pro......I think)(And there must be many more).....

                         Wish you all the best,good luck:Eric..................


              I believe the ATI version is called Cross-Fire,but you`ll have to look in to that...

              [Saving space, attachment deleted by admin]
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              the_mad_joker

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                Re: Hard Core Graphics Card
                « Reply #9 on: February 03, 2010, 10:25:06 AM »
                a few nvidia cards:


                                GF 9500 GT      GF GT 220       GF GT 240       EVGA GT 240 SC  GF 9600 GT      GF 9800 GT
                Shader units    32              48              96              96              64              112
                ROPs            8               8               8               8               16              16
                GPU             G96             GT216           GT215           GT215           G94             G92
                Transistors     314M            486M            727M            727M            505M            754M
                Mem Size        256/512 MB      512/1024 MB     512/1024MB      512 MB          512/1024MB      512/1024MB
                Memory Width    128-bit         128-bit         128-bit         128-bit         256-bit         256-bit
                Memory bandw    25.6 GB/s       25.3 GB/s       54.4 GB/s       57.4 GB/s       57.6 GB/s       57.6GB/s
                Core Clock      550 MHz         625 MHz         550 MHz         550 MHz         650 MHz         600 MHz
                Memory Clock    800 MHz         790 MHz         1700MHz         1800 MHz        900 MHz         900 MHz
                Shader Clock    1400MHz         1360MHz         1340MHz         1340 MHz        1625MHz         1500MHz


                The fact that the 9600 uses a different GPU entirely then the GTX 240 kind of precludes the latter from being simply a faster version of the former.

                ATI 5970:


                transistors:      4308
                interface:        PCIe 2.1 x16
                max memory:       2048
                Core Mhz:         725
                Memory Mhz:       1000
                Texture fillrate: 116
                Pixel fillrate:   46.4
                bandwidth GB/s:   256
                mem type:         GDDR5
                memory Bus width: 2x256
                DirectX:          11
                OpenCL:           1.0
                OpenGL:           3.2
                GFLOPS:           4640
                TDP Idle:         51W
                TDP max:          294W
                Features:         Dual GPU solution on single PCB, Angle independent anisotropic filtering, Eyefinity



                certainly a excellent card by any means.

                However, is it the best? that certainly depends. Without a perfect understanding of how the GPU and various memory pipelines work with various cards, it's impossible to come to a conclusion that has no chance of being superceded when new information becomes available.

                A prime example is the fact that many manufacturers "cheat" on benchmark tests, just as they cheat on WHQL certification. How do they do that? quite simple; the driver simply looks at the program that is running, if it's a well known benchmark app, it "enables dubious optimizations" to increase it's score. cheating at WHQL is even easier; they simply package the driver in an installer that sets a key to not enable any form of optimization; this prevents any sort of issue, and WHQL doesn't care about pixel fillrates or anything like that, but only wether the driver works, they get a passing score. then they package that exact same signed driver into another installer that sets a registry key to enable dubious optimizations, optimizations not tested by the WHQL, of course, so they get the best of both worlds.

                Now, this practice is not something you see today, but on the other hand, it's impossible to tell. perhaps they simply made these "dubious optimizations" less obvious? perhaps when one card simply edges out another, we should consider that maybe the card that seems to perform better is really taking shortcuts.

                Yet another example; back in teh early days of windows 95, when DirectDraw was just taking shape; for the most part, everything worked. but for some cards, DirectDraw would completely bork when using certain features that the video card claimed to support. The cause was in fact that the driver was ALWAYS saying it supported the feature. Basically, a certain driver function was called, essentially, "doessupportfeature" and the driver was simply returning true no matter what.

                MS had to workaround the laziness of these shortcut takers. One of the DDraw dev team members took a seldom used PC on campus, generated a GUID with it, smashed the network card (thus guaranteeing that that GUID will never be generated again) and made a function that called the "doessupportfeature" function of the driver with that GUID. basically, if it returned true, then DirectDraw would go, "AHA! caught you! now I'll never believe what you say" and took a careful route that avoided any non-standard features the driver otherwise claimed to support. This had far-reaching consequences for the driver manufacturer, who, originally probably made the function in the interest of "optimization" and now finds that all the stuff they actually do support is no longer being used because directdraw has confirmed that it cannot trust the driver. So they had to rewrite the driver to actually flesh out the function to work properly.

                What does this have to do with the topic? well, not a whole lot, but it goes to show that the performance of a card weighs heavily on the quality of the driver itself; a newer card can be outperformed by an older one simply because they are using different drivers.

                Of course, in this case I don't think anything could outperform a ATI 5970, but given that you have to consider wether the manufacturers are *really* not cheating at benchmarks or wether they simply are able to hide it a lot better? nobody can really tell...

                Also, I better mention that some of the above re: directdraw stuff was from Raymond Chen's excellent book "the old new thing".


                Thats A Really Lol's Of Info

                Thanks For that BC

                the_mad_joker

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                  Re: Hard Core Graphics Card
                  « Reply #10 on: February 03, 2010, 10:27:02 AM »
                  Quote
                  ATI 5970

                  I Will Go With It   (|

                  Thanks For That BC...

                  Thanks For all Those Who Helped  O:)

                  the_mad_joker

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                    Re: Hard Core Graphics Card
                    « Reply #11 on: February 03, 2010, 10:27:48 AM »


                                                         ===TOPIC CLOSED===
                                                             ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D

                    Crosshair



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                      Re: Hard Core Graphics Card
                      « Reply #12 on: February 03, 2010, 12:31:26 PM »
                      With regards to a card being better then another; consider the following scenario; let's say we have, manufacturer A and manufacturer B.

                      manufacturer A releases their "top of the line" graphics card. Manufacturer B does as well.

                      Now, the manufacturer A card is technically superior in every possible way.

                      But Manufacturer B's card outperforms it at everything.

                      So everybody buys the B card.

                      Then manufacturer A releases a driver update that fixes the bugs in their driver that were causing the issues; and bam, it's now, like, 2 times faster then the B card.

                      That's basically what I mean; the driver itself is merely the software side and that is easily changed later on; the cards themselves remain constant, so if a technically superior card is set back by shoddy drivers, this can often turn around if the vendor releases an updated version. I wasn't really saying that this was the case for the 5670, just that saying "X card is the best" is not always true.



                      Valid points, certainly.  I udnerstand where you're coming from now, I hadn't actually thought of it like that.  In this case the ATI 5 series is relatively new and drivers are still maturing, so if anything the performance gap will widen in the 5970's favour.
                      Also, I originally said "The absolute best gaming card is ATI's 5970."  I still believe this to be true, right now, although of course is the requirements are changed, e.g. if the question became "what is the best gaming card for x budget" or "what is the best card for CAD work" then my recommendation would also change.

                      I have even heard that there are motherboards where you can plug-in multiple grafics cards,I believe AS-Rock make such a board(The P-55M Pro......I think)(And there must be many more).....

                                 Wish you all the best,good luck:Eric..................


                      I believe the ATI version is called Cross-Fire,but you`ll have to look in to that...
                      Many motherboards support ATI's Crossfire and Nvidia's SLI technologies.  They're definitely worth looking into for upgrade options, however in my opinion a single higher end card is always better than two midrange cards together if the price is the same.  A single card still has the option to go SLI or Crossfire and will generally give more consistent framerates.
                      A useful bit of information for the original poster to know though, thanks for adding that :)

                      I Will Go With It   (|

                      Thanks For That BC...

                      Thanks For all Those Who Helped  O:)
                      You're welcome to the suggestions I made, enjoy your new card :)
                      Yes.  A female geek.  How surprising.