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Author Topic: MS to offer browser options in Europe.  (Read 38845 times)

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patio

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Re: MS to offer browser options in Europe.
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2010, 03:26:30 PM »
What are you talking about ? ?
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Re: MS to offer browser options in Europe.
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2010, 03:34:28 PM »
OK. I got it now.
 The British are bullies and that has nothing to do with IE.
They would be bullies even if IE did not exist. Is that right?  :P

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Re: MS to offer browser options in Europe.
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2010, 03:40:15 PM »
Everything. Netscape was about to destroy MS.

Umm... no, they weren't.

First off, how would people  get it without a built in browser? Oh yes, it was paid at the time, just like IE.

Web browsing was becoming one of the basic tasks people performed. It only made sense to include it in the OS.

Also, you neglect to mention that Netscape was losing even before IE was built into the OS; probably because IE was a completely free download starting with Version 2 in mid-1995. It wasn't until over 3 years AFTER that netscape made any of their products free. (January 1998). maybe the fact that they were charging for something that was coming free with the OS and was at least as capable was what caused them problems? Also, it only became free on the same month they started the Mozilla project, so they essentially made it free and gave up at about that point in time, being swallowed by AOL about a year later.

Yes, they were "poised" to dominate. sure, they were losing already when MS integrated IE into a later version of Windows 95 as well as part of the shell update pack, but they could have easily bounced back from the fact that their browser was chock full of bugs and couldn't even animate GIFs properly for god's sake. I think it's probably because the browser sucked *censored* and was full of bugs, not to mention it remained a paid product long after IE was released for free (and Netscape's browser was far from their only product, so they could have afforded to make it free long before they did), that it fell into disuse, not because IE was integrated.

I mean, IE is still integrated in most installations, but nearly everybody I know uses another browser. If anything this proves that the reason netscape failed was simply because they couldn't compete with the new business model, the best they could come up with was adding a few useless tags like <blink> and <marquee> and releasing it as a new version.

OK. I got it now.
 The British are bullies and that has nothing to do with IE.
They would be bullies even if IE did not exist. Is that right?  :P

WHAT are you going on about now? what the heck does Helpmeh's quote have to do with IE? Nothing. It doesn't matter if you can find some obtuse reference that makes it relevant when you look through smoked glass, it's still completely off-topic, since AFAIK while Britain has been part of the EU since the mid-70's it still retains most of it's independence from the rest of the union (such as not using the euro). In fact, most things that you see on the news regarding the EU don't involve Britain at all.
I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

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Re: MS to offer browser options in Europe.
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2010, 10:11:44 PM »
You know over 90% of Linux programmers are not only paid but WELL paid? They tend to leave that out of open source arguments when going after MS... http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Skill=Linux/Salary
Hmm, who pays them?  Where does the money to pay them come from?  It isn't coming from all those Linux users who are using a free Linux distro, so where is it coming from? 

evilfantasy

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Re: MS to offer browser options in Europe.
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2010, 10:18:26 PM »
Hmm, who pays them?  Where does the money to pay them come from?  It isn't coming from all those Linux users who are using a free Linux distro, so where is it coming from? 

I should have Googled first. It's 75%, not 90.

Quote
The most striking aspect of the analysis, however, was where those lines of code originated from. 18% of contributions to the kernel were made without a specific corporate affiliation, suggesting true volunteer efforts. An additional 7% weren't classified. The remainder were from people working for specific companies in roles where developing that code was a major requirement. "75% of the code comes from people paid to do it," Corbet said.

The mere fact that Linux averages in getting more than 7,000 lines of code each day speaks volumes on the users’ devotion to the OS, but it doesn’t change the fact that they haven’t been doing it for free and/or because they like to. Our (Red) hat is off to those who indeed do it for free, whereas the rest will simply have to rethink the open-source community praise routines and face the bitter "no pay no play" truth.

Full article: 75% of Linux code now written by paid developers

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Re: MS to offer browser options in Europe.
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2010, 11:33:26 PM »
Umm... no, they weren't.
First off, how would people  get it without a built in browser? Oh yes, it was paid at the time, just like IE.
Web browsing was becoming one of the basic tasks people performed. It only made sense to include it in the OS.
....
BC, where were you in 1992? CompuServe was a world wide professional network before the WWW became a household word!

A browser to download? No way, People  downloaded stuff over dial-up from somewhere back in the 1980's. Circa 1984  I was mailing Public Domain software for people that wanted to do BBS using CP/M on an Apple ][ **or a Kaypro. People could download back then without a Browser. Before people knew what PC-DOS would be.
MS wants you to believe they invented the PC and the Internet. Stop drinking that Kool Aid!
And yes, it was important to MS to destroy Netscape. You may not think so, but MS sure wanted to do just that and they did. Read your history!

** Footnote. MS made a great little Z80 card that would slip into an Apple ][ and let you boot CP/M. Greatest thing MS ever done. At that time.

Back to topic. The courts found MS guilty. Ms refused to fully comply with the orders. Time went by. The thing became a dead issue. Or so it seemed. The European court just wants MS to do what the should have done.

evilfantasy

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Re: MS to offer browser options in Europe.
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2010, 09:28:40 AM »
Quote
The European court just wants MS to do what the should have done.

The EU makes their living doing stuff like this. They don't care what MS or the people do as long as they are doing something they can get involved in.

patio

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Re: MS to offer browser options in Europe.
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2010, 09:33:10 AM »
They are now suing Google because of a YouTube vid posted about a person suffering from Down's syndrome...

I agree with EF .
Least their smart enough to know where the big money is...

Full Story...
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evilfantasy

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Re: MS to offer browser options in Europe.
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2010, 09:41:48 AM »
They have had their sights set on Google for a while now.

This is the big one which has recently become news.

Quote
Google under investigation for alleged breach of EU competition rules

The European Commission has launched an anti-trust investigation against Google after three online companies alleged that the internet giant’s search functions were penalising their businesses.

Low page rank? Call the lawyers... Ridiculous.

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Re: MS to offer browser options in Europe.
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2010, 10:03:24 AM »
BC, where were you in 1992? CompuServe was a world wide professional network before the WWW became a household word!

A browser to download? No way, People  downloaded stuff over dial-up from somewhere back in the 1980's. Circa 1984  I was mailing Public Domain software for people that wanted to do BBS using CP/M on an Apple ][ **or a Kaypro. People could download back then without a Browser. Before people knew what PC-DOS would be.



For god's sake? BBS's don't download through HTTP, they download through other protocols, like XMODEM and KERMIT and whatnot.

Quote
Back to topic. The courts found MS guilty. Ms refused to fully comply with the orders. Time went by. The thing became a dead issue. Or so it seemed. The European court just wants MS to do what the should have done.

Quote
the EU reached a preliminary decision in the case in 2003 and ordered the company to offer both a version of Windows without Windows Media Player and the information necessary for competing networking software to interact fully with Windows desktops and servers.
They made a version without Windows Media Player. For the EU. they documented their network interfaces (how the *censored* else did SAMBA come about? Sure, they only really partially went through with it and simply released the Source code to windows Server 2003 to members of it's Work Group Server Protocol Program.

It's kind of funny. Linux Zealots sometimes say that "the source code can be used in a manual" but suddenly source code is no longer good enough to keep MS from getting fined 2 Million dollars a day.

personally, If I was Mr Gates, I would have just fingered the lot of them and withdrew from that market entirely.

And yes, there were some awkward claims made by Microsoft's lawyers (this is an important point, lawyers are not exactly the most trustworthy people in any situation).

Basically, the original thing the EU was screwing MS for was the "network interop" features. their already WERE windows networking compatible components for both Linux and Mac, and to say that they got their info through sheer trial and error is ridiculous.

If this was any other company for any other reason, people would be outraged. the EU says "no IE for the european union" so thy remove IE and release Windows 7 E (I believe Vista and XP had similar versions). But even though that was exactly what the EU asked for, apparently they decided to fine them again for not providing the obvious ballot box selection screen that was so obviously implied.

And of course, the whole "undocumented API" bull crap.

Basically, some douche takes dumpbin and looks at the output from a few system files. If there are functions that aren't fully documented, then... "It's undocumented and being used for MS gain".

For example, in windows 3.1, there was a entirely undocumented function in the "user" module. The function was called "BOZOSLIVEHERE" Obviously MS is using this for their exclusive benefit! And there were functions like "BEAR1" and "BEAR2" and "PIGLET1" and "PIGLET2" and "BUNNY1" and so forth. OBVIOUSLY because these exports are undocumented they MUST be being used by MS for competitive advantage! OH THE HORRORS!

The truth is actually quite the opposite. "BOZOSLIVEHERE" for example is an older version of the Edit Control Windows Procedure. Apparently with Windows 3.0 some developers decided to call right into this undocumented function (which at the time didn't even have a name) rather then call the DefWindowProc() Function. When MS found that people were doing this, they simply gave the function a less then flattering name, made the new procedure elsewhere, and let people decide for themselves wether they were bozos.

the BEAR, PIGLET, and BUNNY functions are all essentially unit testing routines. They were probably conditionally compiled and don't have anything in them.

And all the BS about the "undocumented Shell functions" is just that. I mean, 80% of those "competitive advantage" functions are basic string manipulation functions. the reason MS didn't document them is not for "competitive advantage" but rather because they assumed that programmers could write some basic utility functions. Heck, half of the bloody functions have direct equivalents in the C Run-time and the run-time of most languages.

Most of this "undocumented" talk simply comes form lazy programmers, who see the Commandbars in office and say "that's probably a windows control" and when they cannot find it documented they assume it is a windows control that isn't documented, without actually figuring out that it's a part of Office, not windows. If you want a commandbar/commandbars, you can write one yourself. It's not hard. Or, you can just purchase/download one of a number of libraries that allow you to create commandbars.

A Lot of MS programs have UI widgets that people think should be documented so they can use them. How about you stop being lazy and write them yourselves. The ListBar in Outlook, for example, was written by the developers of Outlook For Outlook. And it's not that hard to reproduce.

In fact, nearly every UI widget that MS has left "undocumented" can be recreated in Visual basic and half of the controls available there are simply wrappers around the already documented windows control (listview, treeview, etc)

Quote
And yes, it was important to MS to destroy Netscape. You may not think so, but MS sure wanted to do just that and they did. Read your history!

It's called, "The Price of capitalism" If you prefer democracy over communism or fascism then you better get used to it. better to have one or two monopolies in a free market then to have government sanctioned monopolies in things like Car Insurance and Natural Gas. The "government Sanctioned" part makes it perfectly legal, too.
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Re: MS to offer browser options in Europe.
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2010, 11:00:09 AM »
The EU makes their living doing stuff like this. They don't care what MS or the people do as long as they are doing something they can get involved in.
What on earth? The EU is well within it's rights to defend the intrests of it's members
OK. I got it now.
 The British are bullies and that has nothing to do with IE.
They would be bullies even if IE did not exist. Is that right?  :P
Highly questionable.



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Re: MS to offer browser options in Europe.
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2010, 11:16:45 AM »
What on earth? The EU is well within it's rights to defend the intrests of it's membersHighly questionable.


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Re: MS to offer browser options in Europe.
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2010, 11:17:58 AM »
Quote
What on earth? The EU is well within it's rights to defend the intrests of it's members

right...

So when are they going to send you your cheque from the fines they collected?
I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

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Re: MS to offer browser options in Europe.
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2010, 11:19:41 AM »
Any organization made up of lawyers always has the people at heart...

Yea, OK.

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Re: MS to offer browser options in Europe.
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2010, 11:22:08 AM »
So when are they going to send you your cheque from the fines they collected?

And those fines are going to be passed on to the consumer one way or another.