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Poll

How do you like Linux?

Love it (probably better than Mac and Windows)
4 (30.8%)
It's good (might consider using it full-time)
3 (23.1%)
It's okay
6 (46.2%)
Don't like it much
0 (0%)
Don't like at all
0 (0%)
I hate Linux
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 9

Author Topic: Opinions on Linux  (Read 7691 times)

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Cityscape

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Opinions on Linux
« on: April 04, 2010, 04:22:55 PM »
Hi guys, I'm curious to know what everybody's opinions on Linux are.
1. Have you used it, how long or often?
2. Did you like it? How is it compared to Windows?
3. What distro(s) did you try, when did you try them?
4. Would you consider moving to Linux full time?

I would love to hear about your experience and what you think about Linux and why. =)

Cityscape

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Re: Opinions on Linux
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2010, 05:29:48 PM »
My experience is like this: I first heard about Linux in March/April 2009. I always loved testing things, so in May I downloaded the Ubuntu 9.04 Live CD. I installed it in a VM and read through the book Ubuntu For Non-Geeks. I really liked what I experienced. After getting used to it, I loved it. It was stable, easy to use, had some cool features and was very fast. November 2009 I made the full switch to Linux, and i like it enough that I don't think I'll be going back to Windows anytime soon. I've also tried Mandriva.

Cityscape

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Re: Opinions on Linux
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2010, 05:31:45 PM »
Also, do you think Linux market share will continue growing?

soybean



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Re: Opinions on Linux
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2010, 08:07:58 PM »
As I recall, I download Ubuntu 6.04 a long time ago but really didn't do much with it at that time. I later installed Ubuntu 8.04LTS and then I spent more time getting familiar with it.  Later, I used 9.04 a bit, then 9.10, which I now have on a PC with Win 7 RC (yes, still have the Release Candidate) and have it installed two ways, being diual-boot with Win 7 and as a virtual machine using VMware Player.

Quote
2. Did you like it? How is it compared to Windows?
Yes, I like it.  But, there is a learning curve to endure.  And, I think it still needs to become more user-friendly if it's going to make significant inroads into Microsoft's territory.  Tasks such as installing applications,  hardware device drivers, and browser plug-ins such as Flash and Java are examples of what I'm talking about.  And, many Windows users are not going to want to delve into using Terminal and typing command lines to accompish certain things.  That, in my opinion, is a major deterent to Linux' likelihood of making significant inroads into Microsoft's territory. 

Quote
4. Would you consider moving to Linux full time?
Not now; I still have Windows-based applications I want to use.

Quote
Also, do you think Linux market share will continue growing?
In addition to comments above, I think Linux will have to be available with a longer time span of support for specific versions.  They basically release a new version every 6 months.  If you were an IT manager in a large organization, would you want to deploy a new version of an OS every 6 months?  Even the LTS (Long Term Support) versions are only supported about 2 years on average, I believe.  Compare this to the longevity of Windows XP.  See what I mean?  On the other hand, with Linux distros being available at no cost, that is a factor in favor of Linux.  To summarize my Outlook, I'll predict it will continue to gain some market share but I think it may be a creeping upward, not a rapid upward trend.

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Re: Opinions on Linux
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2010, 08:22:07 PM »
I have to agree with soybean. Although it is free, support doesn't last for as long as some would like, and it just doesn't compare with windows in a user-friendly sense. Most people would rather take 10 clicks to change their settings for something stupid in the control panel than take 5 clicks and about 10 lines of strange code and such with a linux distro.
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Re: Opinions on Linux
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2010, 12:12:44 AM »
I like it a lot.  I especially like Knoppix Live and use it to recover data on drives that are not bootable.  On the other hand I generally don't know much about any of the distros.  I'm still tied up in learning too many other things.  Give it another year maybe and I'll give it a go.

I just installed Ubuntu on one of my systems and I was all excited about it, but then after a big *sigh*, I decided to put it off for a while longer..

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Re: Opinions on Linux
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2010, 05:19:58 AM »
I tried installing Ubuntu on my older PC but that failed catastrophically for some reason. I do have Slackware, Fedora, Ubuntu and XUbuntu installed in VMWare as well as Linux Mint on a flash drive.

So far, Slackware has been my favourite, since it forced me to think; it starts off within the linux prompt, in text mode. I had to log in as root, create another account, logout, log in as that account, and the start XFCE with StartX. Most of the tools/utilities/applications available are pretty much what you would expect in any linux distro, and a few "sudo apt-get install <x>" finished up my set of applications.
I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

Cityscape

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Re: Opinions on Linux
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2010, 01:03:26 PM »
Yes, I like it.  But, there is a learning curve to endure.  And, I think it still needs to become more user-friendly if it's going to make significant inroads into Microsoft's territory.  Tasks such as installing applications,  hardware device drivers, and browser plug-ins such as Flash and Java are examples of what I'm talking about.  And, many Windows users are not going to want to delve into using Terminal and typing command lines to accompish certain things.  That, in my opinion, is a major deterent to Linux' likelihood of making significant inroads into Microsoft's territory.
I have to agree with soybean. Although it is free, support doesn't last for as long as some would like, and it just doesn't compare with windows in a user-friendly sense. Most people would rather take 10 clicks to change their settings for something stupid in the control panel than take 5 clicks and about 10 lines of strange code and such with a linux distro.
I found Ubuntu to be very user-friendly from the first time I booted the Live cd. However tasks like configuring advanced system settings and installing some software can be difficult for a beginner. Like if you want the latest edition of Firefox and you go to the Mozilla website, the only thing you can get is source code. So to install it you have to add a repository, not the easiest task.
Not now; I still have Windows-based applications I want to use. 
If those apps were available for Linux or you did not need them, do you think you would switch?
They basically release a new version every 6 months.  If you were an IT manager in a large organization, would you want to deploy a new version of an OS every 6 months?  Even the LTS (Long Term Support) versions are only supported about 2 years on average, I believe.  Compare this to the longevity of Windows XP.  See what I mean?
True. Ubuntu LTS releases are supported for 3 year and 5 years with the server edition. That is not very good for organizations. However 6 month releases updates can be great for home users.

2x3i5x



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Re: Opinions on Linux
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2010, 01:20:09 PM »
There's still the thing with having to tinker with the terminal / Konsole / whatever you call that. Command prompt scripts, not very end user friendly, but if you'd like to write a script then that's good for you  :P

soybean



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Re: Opinions on Linux
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2010, 01:41:07 PM »
There's still the thing with having to tinker with the terminal / Konsole / whatever you call that. Command prompt scripts, not very end user friendly, but if you'd like to write a script then that's good for you  :P
Exactly.

If those apps were available for Linux or you did not need them, do you think you would switch?
I could see switching in that case. However, I'd still like to see some tasks made easier before making a switch.  Having to go searching the Internet on how to do something via Terminal is just not my idea of using time productively. 

Quote
I found Ubuntu to be very user-friendly from the first time I booted the Live cd.
You make it sound so easy, but what did you do with it then?  Here's what I say to someone who has never used, let's say, Ubuntu and who might be wondering what to expect.  The installation can go very smoothly and Ubuntu will be ready to get online with Firefox, it has an email client (Evolution) already installed, has a media player, a music player, a PDF viewer, an Office suite (OpenOffice), a photo editor (GIMP), etc.  In other words, it's ready to do many of the things Windows users can do with the software found on a new Windows system.  In that sense, it's user friendly. 

But, as soon as that new user want to install Flash Player or download some software they'd like to use, or install a hardware device that requires obtaining and installing a driver, they are likely experience some frustration and bewilderment. They may also discover they simply can't find a driver for a printer or some other device. 

When I initially installed Ubuntu 9.04, the computer was using onboard video.  I installed a spare AGP video card (NVIDIA FX 5200), thinking of this as a minor video upgrade.  But, I found that I would have to use Terminal and use sudo commands to accomplish this.  First road block was an error message saying I needed be at the root level in order to proceed.  I search for how to do that and then obstacle #2 appears.  More research and I find how to resolve that.  Try the procedure again, getting by obstacle #1 (the root requirement) and obstacle #2 only to encounter obstacle #3.  More research and a solution found. Start the procedure again, clearing obstacles #1, #2, and #3, but another obstacle appears.  At that point, I gave up on installing the driver and using that video card.  Oh, and I posted on a Ubuntu forum to ask for assistance but didn't get much help; they basically said the FX 5200 is a "legacy" card and is not supported.  Hmm, I can easily still get Windows drivers for it.

Also, Ubuntu 9.04 had no driver for my fairly new Brother printer, so I could not use it with Ubuntu.  With Ubuntu 9.10, I can install my printer.

So, these are some of the problems new Linux users can encounter.


Cityscape

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Re: Opinions on Linux
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2010, 02:33:14 PM »
You make it sound so easy, but what did you do with it then?
Read the book :). I thought that is was really good book, it taught all the basics to more advanced topics and explained them in a way almost an computer user could understand.
There's still the thing with having to tinker with the terminal / Konsole / whatever you call that. Command prompt scripts, not very end user friendly
But, as soon as that new user want to install Flash Player or download some software they'd like to use, or install a hardware device that requires obtaining and installing a driver, they are likely experience some frustration and bewilderment.
Agreed. These are things that I would like to see "fixed" in Ubuntu. Using Terminal can be complicated to do things. Although sometimes it can be handy (like "sudo apt-get install Pidgin" to install).  Like I mentioned earlier, some software like Firefox is difficult to install/upgrade. That is already getting easier because lots of sites are provide Debain/Ubuntu packages (.deb's) for their software.  .Deb files are very much like .exe's on Windows, you just double click and they install. Flash Player has a .deb file at their site, so that makes it a snap to install.

They may also discover they simply can't find a driver for a printer or some other device. 

When I initially installed Ubuntu 9.04, the computer was using onboard video.  I installed a spare AGP video card (NVIDIA FX 5200), thinking of this as a minor video upgrade.....Oh, and I posted on a Ubuntu forum to ask for assistance but didn't get much help; they basically said the FX 5200 is a "legacy" card and is not supported.  Hmm, I can easily still get Windows drivers for it.
Also, Ubuntu 9.04 had no driver for my fairly new Brother printer, so I could not use it with Ubuntu.  With Ubuntu 9.10, I can install my printer.
I agree. Hardware support is a major issue (although the more people that use Linux the more hardware will be supported). I did manage to get my old Brother printer working but it was a bit difficult. My HP Officejet on the other hand was way easier than with Windows, all I did was plug it in and it worked. And driver installation can be a pain.

If the following were fixed to make Ubuntu more user friendly, it could be a lot more successful.
1. Ease of software & driver installation
2. Customization of system without use of terminal
3. Hardware support



Cityscape

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Re: Opinions on Linux
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2010, 02:42:10 PM »
they basically said the FX 5200 is a "legacy" card and is not supported.  Hmm, I can easily still get Windows drivers for it.
Were you using the drivers from Nvidia? The specs for that card state "Complete Linux Xfree86 drivers". That is probably why it did not work for you. Modern Ubuntu versions do not use Xfree86 (not sure if many distros do anymore), Ubuntu use X.org instead. I don't think Xfree86 and X.org are compatible. I have a PC with onboard from 2001 with only Xfree86 drivers, I can't get that card to work.

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Re: Opinions on Linux
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2010, 02:56:24 PM »
Were you using the drivers from Nvidia? The specs for that card state "Complete Linux Xfree86 drivers". That is probably why it did not work for you. Modern Ubuntu versions do not use Xfree86 (not sure if many distros do anymore), Ubuntu use X.org instead. I don't think Xfree86 and X.org are compatible. I have a PC with onboard from 2001 with only Xfree86 drivers, I can't get that card to work.

That's kind of irrelevant to what Soybean was saying. The point he was trying to make wasthe driver installation process is not user friendly, and it doesn't support as wide a range of hardware as Windows, out of the box or otherwise.
I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

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Re: Opinions on Linux
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2010, 03:27:51 PM »
I had the feeling that linux was better suited for making servers. And also the fact that there's so many types of linuxes out there, how is one supposed to know which is really the one that's suited for them in the long run?

Granted linux has significantly less viruses than windows does, but still .... why make things harder than it really needs to be?

But that comes with the fact that Apple and Mac pay people to develop their OS's as a day job so that's another thing ....

Cityscape

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Re: Opinions on Linux
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2010, 10:31:14 PM »
I could see switching in that case.
So i really curious now, what would your reasons to switching to Linux be?

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Re: Opinions on Linux
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2010, 12:43:37 AM »
I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

neelchauhan

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Re: Opinions on Linux
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2010, 10:27:33 AM »
Linux is not the best but it is OK

Cityscape

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Re: Opinions on Linux
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2010, 09:41:35 PM »
Thanks for your input guys :)

If you ever have anything else to say just post it here.

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Re: Opinions on Linux
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2010, 11:26:03 AM »
Let me solidify Soybeans claims-

Linux was <not> designed to be user friendly. As the quote goes:

"Linux is not a code base.  Or a distro.  Or a kernel.  It's an attitude.  And it's not about Open Source.  It's about a bunch of people who still think vi is a Good config UI."

And it's <right> It's not about the user, it's never about the user. It's about the programmer. Now, it's fair to say that With Ubuntu at least that goal has changed, but honestly? I could barely tell the difference between Ubuntu and Slackware's KFCE. They both had that same "polished terd" feel. Of course this is from a user experience point of view; and really it's a testament to Linux's flexibility that so many different distro's exist and so many graphical environments. But the <choices> are not what make an operating system, it's the choices that <aren't> given that are important. For example, when you install windows, it' doesn't ask you what resolution to run at. it doesn't prompt you for anything but the disk to install. And yet every Linux installation I've done has troubled me with choices about where the swap goes, and what file system to use. seriously, *censored*. can they NOT choose a default and just have an "advanced" mode that asks these questions? Grandma is not going to know the strengths and weaknesses of ReiserFS versus ext4 and she's going to reason logically that if the installer has to <ask> it's an important question. Now, that being said, the Ubuntu installer is sparse in questioning compared to slackware. Slackware is pretty much a cross-examination. The problem with options is this:

the user doesn't necessarily percieve them as "options" but rather as an admittance of failure; it's like the program is saying "I have no idea what I'm doing, sure as *censored* hope you have an idea". And this is a major UI flaw across every platform. if a program can determine for itself what version of windows it's running, why the *censored* do they ask? "do you want to install the windows 2000 or Windows XP Version" when you're running XP is a rather stupid question. sure, add an <option> to force the use of windows 2000 installer options for for goodness sake it's not an <option> if there is no default value, the it's required input, and not <optional>.

Another peeve of mine (windows based, but still, while I'm on the subject) is some program installers.

They have this innate need to ask me what language to use. *censored* kind of a stupid question is that, "hmm, well, I see you're running the English Version of windows, I better make sure you don't want to install me using Cantonese" seriously, retarded. Don't ASK the user what language they speak when the bloody locale API can tell you. that's irresponsible, lazy, and downright stupid. "but it defaults to english!" they say. It defaults to english if you're running a <SPANISH> version of windows, too. lots' of thought went into that, didn't it.

Anyway, (as shown above) I'm not picking on Linux, but honestly? consider for a moment that Ubuntu is designed as a "beginner" operating system, to serve those who are still learning the mouse. We have to realize that not everybody wants to <learn> these things. they want to learn the bare minimum to get their work done, and when getting work done in Ubuntu requires the user to install kernel modules and compile things and resolve library conflicts. The fact that "it's not windows" is only going to drive the user so far. Bill Gates is rich for a reason and windows is dominant for a reason, and it's not because they use "strong-arm" tactics or whatever other communist based concepts Linux users are yelling about these days. Stop complaining about the competition and start fixing your distro's!

The windows installer is designed well. people with relatively little experience can install windows with no problem.  The reason? It doesn't trouble the user. If something goes wrong, it says so, but if everything is going fine it makes default choices and these choices work fine for 90% of the population, which saves 90% of the population from googling the difference between FAT32 and NTFS to weigh the important decision of what file system to use.



I prefer to use the computer, not spend my time searching usenet or entering sudo apt-get commands to acquire drivers that I later discover via the foreign readme file to actually be built for the wrong sub-model of my hardware, therefore requiring intense googling to find the right one. This would be fine but when the windows experience is a single google and a download it leaves a *censored* of a lot to be desired. Especially when the instructions create more questions then they resolve.

"Ahh, I have this hardware device, hmm, I know, I'll search for drivers"

the inevitable result is almost always a thread where somebody asked the very same question, and while in about 60% of cases the ubiquitous answer is something like "OMFG RTFM NOOB" by a user named "masterhaxxor712" or something equally indicative that they run Windows ME and spend their time playing Counter-Strike, occasionally one can stumble on a useful thread, which outlines the simple process of installation.

1. you download the zip, you extract it somewhere.

2. extract the tarball source that corresponds to your kernel version
 
3. stop <some random service>

4. compile the driver with the following command <random make command>

This as I said raises more questions for somebody not familar with Linux.

1.How do you extract a zip? (of course there are GUI tools for that now, but that is a rather recent addition).

2. *censored* is a tarball, how do I know what version of the kernel I have?

3. how do you stop a service?

4. Of course, this inevitably and always results in missing libraries, which you faithfully download, and you successfully install the driver, only to find that your desktop environment no longer works since it linked to a different version of of the library required by the driver which differs only by a single minute revision. Of course you cannot simply install the old lib since you'll break the driver, so *censored* do you do?

The beauty of that last point is one of the "strongest" arguments for many Linux evangelists is that it lets you escape "DLL *censored*" but all your doing is replacing DLL *censored* with LIB *censored* and let me tell you, DLL's actually get along. you cna have side by side installs, if you do it right. Linux has no such concept and the fact that it doesn't support having multiple versions of Binary components installed is almost as disgusting as the prospect of having grandmothers and 7 year olds compile freaking kernel modules.

I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

mr-bisquit

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Re: Opinions on Linux
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2010, 03:26:03 PM »
Oh, God.
It is so difficult.
Nah.
It's easy.
My girlfriend who has no programming knowledge is using it.


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Re: Opinions on Linux
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2010, 03:07:18 AM »
wait a second, *censored* is this:

http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/general-10/linux-distros-too-hard-to-use-801102/

thank you so much Cityscape for taking that completely out of context and misinterpreting what I said. My post was in  response to <your> post.

Anyway, yes, there are graphical tools equivalent to most of the commands used. (actually, the number of built in applications is (obviously) a lot larger then windows, (there is a reason for that, although it's rather stupid).

Also, I fail to see how using sudo with apt-get is a issue... (???)

Quote
Doesn't seem he knows too much about security risks.

The only reason I use sudo apt-get is because when you use apt-get without using sudo (or su, which I think can be used for the same purpose with certain options), it complains and helpfully asks "Are you root?"- so I used sudo. (Is there another way that is "better" to use apt-get properly from the terminal?) That's all. Of course running programs as root can be bad in cases where somebody else can control the flow of the program (consider stack overwriting code that takes advantage of the all too common flaw whereby programmers insist on using printf() with a single argument that was provided externally; that input can be manipulated so that printf overwrites the stack with user-injected code, and the RET instruction that would otherwise be issues at the end of main() (or whichever subroutine the program happens to be in) "returns" control to the injected piece of code. this injected piece of code usually just runs the shell; which is now rooted since the program was.

So the security implications only go as far as you "trust" the creators of the program.

Also, since I'm running the apt-get directly on my local machine, I could only have a security issue (from what I can tell) if the repository is compromised. I would certainly hope that that doesn't happen.


Anyway, my point was, as far as Linux has come, there are a few minor issues here and there that can be an incredible roadblock to the users migrating from windows; now, I don't mean users who are experienced with windows and know the various in's and outs of it's mechanics, but rather for people that use word every day.

Actually, come to think of it, they could probably shift to OpenOffice on, say, Ubuntu, pretty easily; and they would probably only have issues with the very same things they would have issues with on other operating systems (driver installation is "scary" to a lot of people, regardless of OS). So in that regard my post was certainly stretched into hyperbole.

I also noted that a common distribution method for Linux software is that it is only given in source; usually with a makefile and instructions. This needs amendment as well, since, as mentioned, there are a vast number of applications available through the package managers of most distributions. This would suite people just fine, however, sometimes they aren't the latest version (keeping a repository up to date is probably no easy task) in which case you would (usually) need to go to the program's sourceforge or similar page, download a tarball (or whatever they packaged it as), extract it, and run the appropriate make command.

This of course doesn't apply to the extreme beginner, who is more then happy with the out of date, but functional version, but rather to the users who have this urge to always have the latest and greatest of all of them- that is, the learning curve goes from getting, say, version 1.4 via the package manager hassle free, or having to download version 1.6 and extract and compile it themselves (and yes, the various graphical tools help in this regard, my linux time is about 50/50 outside of a graphical environment and inside it, which perhaps provides a pear-shaped view of exactly what the "average" user would experience. Anyways, it's not so much how difficult it is but more the increase in complexity from the package manager to getting versions that aren't in the repository.

Inevitably, one of the "standard" (OpenOffice convertee) will need assistance with a specific feature, and will learn that it is a bug, or an issue, or something along those lines (such as being added) in the latest version of OpenOffice; and they may find that that version is not within their package manager; so they have to climb a rather steep learning curve.
I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

michaewlewis



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Re: Opinions on Linux
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2010, 09:54:09 AM »
I downloaded Linux Mint a few months ago and I must say, it has come a long way. Longer than I ever thought it would.
They packaged all of the media codecs necessary for watching DVDs, listening to MP3s, etc. so you don't have to go searching for them on the internet and then try to figure out how to use it.
It included proprietary drivers from ATI so that I could play 3D linux games on my laptop without custom building/installing/compiling.
I was also able to add my network printer and print from it just by going to the control center and clicking add printer. I didn't have to do any searching or compiling or advanced configuring. I would guess that the total time to install/configure the printer was a whole 20 seconds.
I was also really impressed by how easy it is to search for and install software.

But I still don't think I would switch entirely to linux. I like playing Oblivion and Fallout3 on Windows and don't want to try to mess around with "getting it to work on linux". It should just work..... Also, in my opinion, Microsoft Office is irreplaceable.

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Re: Opinions on Linux
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2010, 11:27:16 AM »
what a coincidence, I just fired up my Installation of Mint that I have on a 8GB key. Bloody impressive. Virtual Machines do <NOT> even come close to giving any of these credit; especially if you like silly effects :P


Also I retract my statements I've made regarding the package manager, It may not be super ultra user friendly but it's not something a few tweaks couldn't fix, and in my experience they are merely minor annoyances. Power management was even working, and that's usually hit or miss regardless of Operating system (mostly due to hardware differences, though).

Only thing was it was on a Key so it was a tad slow. I even installed one of my favourite older games right to the key- openarena, which was a simple "apt-get install openarena" call. (no idea if it's available via the package manager) worked great too, aside from having to deal with the laptop for input.

Speaking of which, I've no idea how the configuration of the card came to be; It's some Intel chipset, but I was able to use the 3d features (what I'd describe as Aero glass equivalent features, coming from windows, it has it's own desktop composition features I imagine, and they certainly are powerful). On that count, I certainly retract my statements re: driver installation, since I was clearly speaking from my WAAAY older experience with Linux distributions. It has certainly come a long way since then.

Also, as Ghostdog points out in almost every single one of his posts, Python,Perl, as well as a number of other languages can be used cross-platform in a way so that a single application can run on multiple systems. Of course C and C++ can be as well, but programming C and C++ cross-platform is far more effort and requires separate binaries. (or compiler savvy users).

And even better- Mono makes the whole thing an even sweeter deal. I mean the .NET framework for Linux based OS's, not the kissing disease.

I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.