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Author Topic: ccleaner help  (Read 23534 times)

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BC_Programmer


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Re: ccleaner help
« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2010, 04:17:59 AM »
CCleaner is not a registry cleaner. it has a registry cleanup component, but it's main purpose has always been disk cleanup.


Having a larger registry doesn't slow down access time any more then having a lot of files on a disk. recall the heirarchal ordering. If you have a folder on C: with thousands of files, it's not going to slow down accesses across the drive. In fact, it won't even slow down accesses within that folder.

The registry is a database. Yes. One might gather this from the fact that it's full name is "registration database".

However.

A Larger database does not affect access to records within that database, additionally, I might point out that databases like Jet, Access, MySQL, SQL Server, Oracle, etc. are relational databases- not heirarchal. Strictly speaking there is one "flat" set of tables containing records; heirarchy is hacked in via lookup Ids into other tables.


http://www.sentinelchicken.com/research/registry_format/

The registration database, however, is fully hierarchal. Many people make the assumption that accessing a key involves accessing the keys before it in the list- or at least "seeking" past them.

While disk wise this is true, the registry stores key and value record offsets in the parent key's records. The value or key records  of the parent key will need to be enumerated, but considering the fact that even a PC from 1998 could iterate over nearly 100 thousand a second it's not going to contribute to slowdown unless you have that many, and that simply never happens. (I am speaking of values and subkeys of a single key, not the registry as a whole). And even then, I imagine they employ a number of other methods aside from the basic sequential access to each record, such as hash maps.

Access to the leaves (values) of the registration database tree follow the very same rules as accessing the leaves in a Tree structure; the speed is O(n), where n is the number of nodes that need to be passed through. Unless you have a registry key that is nested beneath hundreds of subkeys that simply isn't going to be a problem.

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If that were the case, why would Piriform spend so much time & effort developing one for free?

I'm sorry, is this an actual argument or a joke?

"Somebody did it so it's a good idea" is hardly grounds for a dismissive attitude on the subject. Bad ideas are acted on all the time, just because a bad idea is acted on doesn't suddenly make it a good idea. Additionally, CCleaner is <NOT> a registry cleaner. it provides some basic housekeeping tasks (half of which are useless, I'll get into those in a moment) but it does not make any claims that it "cleans" the registry.

As for the various registry "integrity" checks it can perform:

"SharedDLLs" have not been used by the EXE loader since windows 98. In fact the only thing that accesses them in common practice is the installer that writes the value there. Safe to delete, but all you gain is a few extra bytes of disk space.

"Unused file extensions"

This is absolutely meaningless. It's like scanning your drive for empty folders. would you expect deleting empty folders on your drive to speed things up? No. This doesn't speed registry access up either. No speed is  gained from this either even with files with that extension- windows would try to find the section to determine wether it exists anyway.

"ActiveX and Class issues"

This is the only meaningful and productive thing you can check for. The best part is almost nobody knows what it's scanning for. I won't even BOTHER to reiterate the same thing I've spoken of in the dozen other far too long posts on this subject I've made. This is only useful in that it prevents applications from trying to instantiate an object only to find that the DLL or executable that is registered is not found.

"type libraries"

pretty much the same as above.

"Application paths"

This found 10 issues on my machine.

But all the files it reported as missing were present. More on that in a moment.

'Help files"

another meaningless key. you save a few bytes, maybe, if it discovers that helpfiles registered here don't exist.

"installer files"

This might be sensible... usually. more on that in a moment as well.

"Obsolete software key"

Again, meaningless. no harm, but no real gain.



And also- an far larger problem.

CCleaner's registry checker thing can actually <corrupt> your registry on Vista and 7.

If you don't run it as admin, you can pretty much guarantee some issues in the future. Consider for a moment that a program requires administrator privileges to access files in the system folders or program files folders.

Now, that's sensible.

However, when CCleaner tries to access a file in program files to check if it exists based on the value of a key (say, in Application paths) It get's  back access denied and assumes it doesn't exist, thus marking the key bad. this happens with <All> the various scans; such as installer scans (which are usually stored in the windows folder).

So if you forget to run it as admin you're deleting keys that  <aren't> obsolete, disassociating files from programs that <DO> exist.... creating problems, where there are none.


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I still don't understand why a software developer would provide something that people want, if he can't make any money from it.
No offense intended, Quantos, but that is the most ignorant thing I've ever read. It's not always about money. Why do painters paint? why did Michelangelo sculpt David? was it because he could get money for it? Probably not. I don't even think he did, actually.

The only people that didn't understand famous artists during their time were exactly that way- they only cared about the bottom line, and couldn't imagine anybody else thinking differently, they couldn't leave their own little world of shekels and talents and actually appreciate what was around them. Sure- they contributed to the community, at a price.

However- are there any famous money-lenders? are there any famous Investment bankers? Do they have busts of loan-sharks in museums? Are their memorials to great financiers in the same token as those in the  U.S for the many people who shaped that country? No. the possession and seeking of material goods is a sign of vanity that almost precludes any of these types of people from ever being considered for recognition, except perhaps in the form of infamy.

I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

Allan

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Re: ccleaner help
« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2010, 06:14:26 AM »
I really don't like getting involved with these discussions because there is no way to convince someone who believes registry "cleaners" work that they don't. The bottom line is that the best possible result is that there will be no harm done. Okay - ccleaner's registry cleaner module may very well not hurt anything. The same can be said of smiling at your computer and saying "good morning" to it each day before booting up. And both have precisely the same positive effect - they make you feel better. Clearing unused items from the registry makes your system run better or faster? No. But if you believe it does that's fine. THAT's why companies make and sell (or give away) these products - because people want to believe there is a way to improve performance and some people actually believe they DO see a performance increase. The placebo effect. OR - P.T. Barnum had it 100 right. Or both.

I can tell you for an absolute fact that registry "cleaners" are the cause of a huge number of problems and posts on computer support forums.

Quantos



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Re: ccleaner help
« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2010, 06:42:01 AM »
Quote
I still don't understand why a software developer would provide something that people want, if he can't make any money from it.
No offense intended, Quantos, but that is the most ignorant thing I've ever read. It's not always about money. Why do painters paint? why did Michelangelo sculpt David? was it because he could get money for it? Probably not. I don't even think he did, actually.
Don't blame that statement on me man, I didn't make it ;)
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Computer_Commando



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Re: ccleaner help
« Reply #33 on: April 16, 2010, 02:34:25 PM »
No offense intended, Quantos, but that is the most ignorant thing I've ever read. It's not always about money. Why do painters paint? why did Michelangelo sculpt David? was it because he could get money for it? Probably not. I don't even think he did, actually.
Don't blame that statement on me man, I didn't make it ;)
You can blame it on me.  BTW, they did do it for the money, being sponsored by rich patrons, whose support enabled their entire lifestyle and that of their apprentices.  That was the way the great artists made their living.  Without their wealthy patrons and the money they provided to produce the art, you never would have heard of them.

BC_Programmer


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Re: ccleaner help
« Reply #34 on: April 16, 2010, 07:16:06 PM »
You can blame it on me.  BTW, they did do it for the money, being sponsored by rich patrons, whose support enabled their entire lifestyle and that of their apprentices.  That was the way the great artists made their living.  Without their wealthy patrons and the money they provided to produce the art, you never would have heard of them.

LOL... guess you don't know how poor almost all of them were... the people sponsoring them may have been rich, but they pretty much just gave them crumbs.
I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

overthehill



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Re: ccleaner help
« Reply #35 on: April 17, 2010, 12:46:19 AM »
Just had to get in on this discussion. I use a program "The Print Shop" and have used it for a long time. This morning it just wouldn't load. It couldn't find a file(don't remember which one?) Because I have the disk I decided to remove the program. Add/Remove Programs wouldn't remove it though. Tried CCleaner and I couldn't remove it there either. I downloaded "Revo Uninstaller" and it did remove the program, but when I tried to re-install the program i got the same message as when I tried to remove it. Couldn't find that file to remove program. It was at this point that I decided to use the "Registry" Cleaner/Fixer/Repairer (or whatever it is)option in CCleaner.I did back up the registry before running it. There was three files (related to The Print Shop program) left in the registry that CCleaner acknowledged and was able to remove. Once this was completed the program loaded and is running fine again.

This was the same type of situation that kpac mentioned. His example was MS Office mine is The Print Shop. So Registry Cleaners or??? may cause more trouble than they're worth, but in my case it was required. And, I wasn't afraid to use it because I use it often. Perhaps I've just been lucky?


             

soybean



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Re: ccleaner help
« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2010, 08:08:42 AM »
overthehill, thanks for posting that.  It was me who mentioned the MS Office example.  Your post reinforced a point I was making in my previous post, which is that CCleaner's registry cleaner can be a problem solving aid in some situations.  Therefore, statements from forum members that discourage any use of any registry cleaner under any circumstances is unforturnate because they spread the mindset that a registry cleaner should never be used.  And, such statements lump all registry cleaners into this negative frame of reference instead of engaging in some positive discussion of which ones are safer to use. 

overthehill



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Re: ccleaner help
« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2010, 08:37:16 AM »
Sorry about the name mixup soybean. It was very late and the print gets very small :||x


             

BC_Programmer


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Re: ccleaner help
« Reply #38 on: April 17, 2010, 08:41:06 AM »
overthehill, thanks for posting that.  It was me who mentioned the MS Office example.  Your post reinforced a point I was making in my previous post, which is that CCleaner's registry cleaner can be a problem solving aid in some situations.  Therefore, statements from forum members that discourage any use of any registry cleaner under any circumstances is unforturnate because they spread the mindset that a registry cleaner should never be used.  And, such statements lump all registry cleaners into this negative frame of reference instead of engaging in some positive discussion of which ones are safer to use. 


Actually, the MSOffice issue falls into the ActiveX/COM area; this is a perfectly sensible and relatively standardized area as far as checking would go- the only grave concern is that you <MUST> run it as administrator- good thing CCleaner asks for admin right away.

I don't fully agree with a few of the little sections in the registry cleaner area, but they don't do what I <hate> reg cleaners to do, which is try to "parse" and determine what keys are valid when they really don't know what they are for.


I think the main reason folks here discourage it is that somebody might recommend the use of a CCleaner's registry cleaner component, and that perosn might decide that they should try that free registry cleaner they saw advertised on some other site (or maybe they google for "registry cleaner").

The Print shop scenarion is a little odd, in that it states that it cannot find a file both times and it turns out to be registry keys.

which is that CCleaner's registry cleaner can be a problem solving aid in some situations. 

This I can somewhat agree with, my posts was mostly in contest to the multiple posts stating that cleaning the registry can speed up the system. It can be used, in certain circumstances (obviously, if the program had been able to uninstall properly the situation to use the registry cleaning component would not have arisen). But I still don't think it comes even close to being something that should be recommended frequently (such as making sure they are clean of malware, have updates, etc) but rather only when their information makes it seem likely that the situation warrants it. Additionally, we cannot deny that it can cause problems if used improperly.
I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

overthehill



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Re: ccleaner help
« Reply #39 on: April 17, 2010, 09:31:25 AM »
I wouldn't suggest that the registry cleaner ever made anything run faster. And I would agree that they could possibly be a problem. But, after my recent experience they obviously have their place. After all it cured my problem when I could find no other way.


             

Quantos



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Re: ccleaner help
« Reply #40 on: April 21, 2010, 08:32:26 AM »

This I can somewhat agree with, my posts was mostly in contest to the multiple posts stating that cleaning the registry can speed up the system. It can be used, in certain circumstances (obviously, if the program had been able to uninstall properly the situation to use the registry cleaning component would not have arisen). But I still don't think it comes even close to being something that should be recommended frequently (such as making sure they are clean of malware, have updates, etc) but rather only when their information makes it seem likely that the situation warrants it. Additionally, we cannot deny that it can cause problems if used improperly.

Thanks BC, I knew if I waited long enough someone would tell me what I was trying to say :)
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jamdanie04

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Re: ccleaner help
« Reply #41 on: April 25, 2010, 10:09:02 PM »
I use CCleaner and I need some help.

I click on the Registry Cleaner Tab and then I click on Scan For Problems and it does.
Then it brings up a lit of things to be fixed and I leave everything Selected with a check in the box.

Then I click Fix Selected.
And the next window has two tabs  Fix Issue  and  Fix All  I click  Fix All.

And it does and all the prablems go off the screen  so I close ccleaner and restart the computer.

Now I run it again and it brings up a big list again  it never stops I thought I fixed everything.

I can do the same thing over and over and over as many time as I want.

Am I useing it wrong did this happen to anyone els??????????????
How do I use  CCleaner??

Hi,

i used registry cleaner not ccleaner because  registry cleaner is a type of software utility designed for the MS Windows operating system whose purpose is to remove
redundant or unwanted items from the Windows registry.It can help you to  keep your PC running smooth.
____________________
Questionable link removed...
« Last Edit: April 26, 2010, 05:39:16 AM by patio »

overthehill



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Re: ccleaner help
« Reply #42 on: April 25, 2010, 10:59:35 PM »
I think I can safely say that the concensus in this thread is; be careful with the registry. And, whether your solution is the best or not, I'll never know. The link that you've provided is not recommended WOT.


             

2x3i5x



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Re: ccleaner help
« Reply #43 on: April 27, 2010, 01:38:19 PM »
http://onecare.live.com/site/en-Us/article/registry_cleaner_why.htm

Even Microsoft did say doing a registry cleaning once a month would help  :P Though you need to be careful...

oh by the way, should grab the new version of CCleaner, it came out earlier in the week...  :)

Allan

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Re: ccleaner help
« Reply #44 on: April 27, 2010, 02:16:12 PM »
http://onecare.live.com/site/en-Us/article/registry_cleaner_why.htm

Even Microsoft did say doing a registry cleaning once a month would help  :P Though you need to be careful...

oh by the way, should grab the new version of CCleaner, it came out earlier in the week...  :)
All part of their sales pitch. Registry cleaners are useless. But you know what? I'm really tired of saying the same thing. So by all means everyone - download and run every registry cleaner you can find. Afterwards you can either post here or click the link in my signature for help  8)