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Author Topic: Ram Disc software ?  (Read 8407 times)

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kingdaddyrabbit

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Re: Ram Disc software ?
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2010, 01:07:27 PM »
OK   :)  :)  Thanks to the discussion>
What I think I've learned: (but doesnt mean i'll do)
1.  The pagefile folder can be at least made so that the folder won't be written to? But
2.  7 will continue to write files where it deems neccessary when it can't write to pagefile.sys?
If so, then:
If 1,  where do the files go?
And if 2, will 7 continue to write as much as it would with pagefile.sys?
And thanks for you're time and expertise.

Linux711



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Re: Ram Disc software ?
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2010, 01:16:00 PM »
First of all, the pagefile is not a folder. Hence the name "pagefile.sys".

Quote
But 2.  7 will continue to write files where it deems neccessary when it can't write to pagefile.sys?

As far as I know, no. Windows will continue to page, but it won't page using the hard disk. That is for someone else to clear up though.

Quote
If 1,  where do the files go?

The pagefile will remain on the drive until you disable and then delete it.

Quote
will 7 continue to write as much as it would with pagefile.sys?

Yes, except it would be in the memory not hard drive.

I am a little unsure about this. You may want to just google paging to get a better idea.
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Allan

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Re: Ram Disc software ?
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2010, 01:18:35 PM »
As far as I know, no. Windows will continue to page, but it won't page using the hard disk. That is for someone else to clear up though.

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. To (and from) where do you think files would be paged if not the HD?

kingdaddyrabbit

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Re: Ram Disc software ?
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2010, 04:50:36 PM »
OK, pagefiles go to the drive. Do any ever go to ram?
I think i'm finding thru my research is that pagefile.sys on a ssd -
page size isn't great enough to be a longevity/lifespan concern.
(altho 7 overprovisions the default size, it can be managed based on 7's demands for the user's needs)
disable pagefile and the nand controller will place (perhaps it does it w/o the disable) the pages ramdomly in the appropriate block based on the amount data already in the blocks so that no one block fills before others (unless you're running low on space).
i'll be researching more but, any comments before i solve this thread?
And thanks again for the explinations everyone!
 

patio

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Re: Ram Disc software ?
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2010, 05:36:19 PM »
Dis-information Post of the Month Award lands here...
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kingdaddyrabbit

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Re: Ram Disc software ?
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2010, 07:49:33 PM »
ok, thanks for explaining that to me.

jason2074



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Re: Ram Disc software ?
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2010, 10:16:57 PM »

BC_Programmer


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Re: Ram Disc software ?
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2010, 11:52:49 PM »
It will save disk space on drive C: plus it's pretty pointless to have when you have 4GB or more RAM.

No. It's not. the Page file is required in order for the Virtual Memory Manager to function properly. Without a pagefile, the VMM can only manage memory in larger 64K chunks (pages), as opposed to the 4K pages it can deal with when there is a pagefile. This is to prevent memory fragmentation, on account of the fact that without a pagefile no swapping can occur, in which case when a program allocates a piece of memory that memory is there for good (without a pagefile) until it's deallocated or the program terminates, as opposed to that memory being fully swappable.

The net effect of not using a pagefile is that you get a limited uptime as a result of the fragmentation that will occur eventually as well as lower memory performance overall from the VMM.


Re: the original topic of RAM drives.

The last time they have had any use was with DOS, since you could convert extended memory into extra disk space when you were running programs that would otherwise only use conventional memory. Additionally, hard drives were very slow back in those days (todays hard drives aren't much slower then memory was then). Usually, the user would create a RAM drive (using DOS's VDISK.SYS or RAMDRIVE.SYS) that used extended memory or conventional memory or whatever, copy appropriate program files to that new drive, run the program from there, and then copy any needed documents or anything that needed to be persistent back to the hard drive, since everything on the RAM drive would be gone after a reboot or when you shut off the machine.

There are some implications that putting a pagefile on a RAM drive would increase performance. This is blatantly false.

The pagefile is there ONLY to hold data that is by definition "stale" if you haven't used photoshop in a while but it's still running, all the non-shared data pages are paged out to disk. "So" you say, "now that paging and paging out is faster!" And you would have me there. But by making a RAM drive, you are reducing the amount of total available memory (bear in mind that despite what some people have said in this thread, you cannot create a ramdisk outside the ~3.5GB barrier of most consumer windows systems). Guess what you are doing by reducing the total amount of available memory? making data go stale faster. Now memory fills up quicker and therefore data will be paged out more often. Note that data is only paged out when necessary, so if you have 8GB of RAM, data will only be paged to disk when a program either purposely forced it to be paged to disk (for whatever reason) or when physical memory is low, or certain functions are called.

So, even though you managed to make page operations extremely fast by using 4GB of your 8GB of RAM for a RAM drive and storing the pagefile there, you've defeated the purpose. All that is happening when you page now is that data is being copied from one area of memory to another; whereas if you had simply used a disk-based pagefile, you would be paging less and that 4GB of memory would be used as memory itself rather then some psuedo-copy location. Using a pagefile on a RAM drive defeats the entire purpose of the Virtual Memory scheme itself, and causes any number of the assumptions used in any Virtual Memory manager to become false; with a Virtual Memory manager (which essentially decides what get's paged to the pagefile and when) the assumption is that the pagefile access time is slower then memory, and that both can be accessed concurrently. When you create a pagefile in a RAMdrive, you are invalidating this assumption, which can only lead to less-then ideal logic and therefore less-than-perfect memory management. This combined with the fact that you have reduced the total memory lead to reduced performance all around.

Now, putting a pagefile on a SSD, on the other hand, is a different story. a SSD drive is still slower then System Memory, and can still be accessed concurrent with system RAM. It makes a perfect place to put a pagefile; however, bear in mind that the performance increase by putting a pagefile on an SSD is not as great as the increase from installing the OS files and programs on an SSD.
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Allan

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Re: Ram Disc software ?
« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2010, 05:52:42 AM »
Well Done BC. You have infinitely more patience than I (well, I guess most people do for that matter ;D ).

kingdaddyrabbit

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Re: Ram Disc software ?
« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2010, 01:52:42 PM »
I was wondering if anyone has used, or knows about using, a ram disc prog. in conjunction with a ssd, for relocating certain files. Like the pagefile, temp and tmp or anything that you dont want to keep stored on youre pc.[/quote]
After looking at my preface, i see that misunderstanding may have happened due to pc being misspoken. It should read written to the ssd. or What about using a ram disc to decrease the number of writes to a ssd.
which is probable what prompted this:
Now, putting a pagefile on a SSD, on the other hand, is a different story. a SSD drive is still slower then System Memory, and can still be accessed concurrent with system RAM. It makes a perfect place to put a pagefile; however, bear in mind that the performance increase by putting a pagefile on an SSD is not as great as the increase from installing the OS files and programs on an SSD.

I had omitted ramdisc for pagefile and thank you for you're detailed reply BC. Thanks to it I understand more about how pagefile.sys works and will help guide me to deciding how i want to manage it for my MLC nand controlled ssd
that will place the pages randomly in the appropriate block based on the amount data already in the blocks so that no one block fills before others (unless you're running low on space).

If i understand correctly, unless program specific, vmm maps the page or block to ram. It will also swap the page place from ram to disc and then back to ram, using methodology of some sort to do so.
If pagefile size is managed to 0, or is disabled, does it mean that nothing will be written to the drive, then if you run out of ram or a prog requires it, sys will prob. crash or prog not start or function properly?

Thanks
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 02:08:04 PM by kingdaddyrabbit »