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Author Topic: use of Insulating Washers  (Read 19111 times)

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Lisa_maree

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use of Insulating Washers
« on: July 02, 2011, 04:10:41 PM »
When changing Motherboards I often see that there has been a lot of effort put into putting red insulating washers on all the mounting holes. Is there a good reason for doing this ? And if it is necessary why don't the manufactures use bushes in the holes.

Thanks

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Re: use of Insulating Washers
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2011, 04:19:54 PM »
Thee was a reason. Maybe there is a document somewhere. Some mobo designs had traces too close to the mount holes. So either a isolated washer or a plastic stand off. The current teed is to have all mount points also be ground points.

EDIT: Good Griffie! Just did a quick search and can't believe how many people wild guess with no research or background in motherboard design. If the Mobo maker wants you to ground it, ground the thing!. The metal surface underneath is called  a 'ground plane' and some makers want multiple ground points. By design.
 

patio

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Re: use of Insulating Washers
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2011, 04:32:08 PM »
I've used them since Day One...but i'm old school...
Quicker than removing/replacing the MBoard.
" Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "

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Re: use of Insulating Washers
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2011, 06:02:39 PM »
OK. Show and Tell. I will show you mine if you show me yours.
Old Intel type motherboard, now retired for unknown reasons. Has lots of ground pads. Count them. Eight.
http://geek9pm.com/new/old-mobo.jpg
Now look at a close up. The make wants you to ground it.
http://geek9pm.com/new/ground.jpg

(Children tuner 7 show not view the motherboard pix  alone. very scary.)


Computer_Commando



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Re: use of Insulating Washers
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2011, 06:21:44 PM »
They are isolation pads, not ground pads.  It's a "keep out" area for the circuit trace routing & component pads.  Ground (or return to psu) is not connected to the chassis.  Motherboards have many layers, component side, solder side, ground plane (internal), voltage plane or planes (internal).  At least 4, but could be 6 or 8.

Geek-9pm


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Re: use of Insulating Washers
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2011, 01:22:31 AM »
No disrespect.
They are ground posts.
It is an Intel D845PEBT2

lectrocrew



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Re: use of Insulating Washers
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2011, 02:44:17 AM »
Quote
They are ground posts.

Quote
They are isolation pads, not ground pads.

I guess I'm wrong because I always thought that these points are simply for physically mounting the mboard to the case only, and the metal rings around the holes in the mboard are for strength (to spred the load across a broader area on the brittle fiberglass/epoxy board material) so as to not crack the board when the mounting screws are torqued. From what i've seen these points are not connected to any of the conductive traces on the board, and the board itself is non-conductive, so I don't see how they would serve as ground points.
The last machine I built (1st in specs) used metal screws and spacers to mount the mboard to the case with no type of insulation washers, bushings ect. The spacers were simply used as spacers to keep the components on the board from touching the case - not for insulation. The input connectors on the mboard from the PSU have several grounds (common) on them. And most, if not all connectors throughout the machine also provide a ground (common) for the circuit that they connect to.
 This is just based on my experience. I'm no computer guru. This is just my wild guess. I'd like a link to some info on this subject though.

Quote
And if it is necessary why don't the manufactures use bushes in the holes
Very good question!  ;)

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Re: use of Insulating Washers
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2011, 03:25:44 AM »
The photos I posted above are from a real Intel motherboard. D845PEBT2.   On that motherboard all eight of the mounts are to be electrically and mechanically connected to the metal case. It is by design, not an accident not an after thought. This does not apply to all motherboards. It is true of many Intel motherboards.

There are photos by 'experts' mounting that motherboard with plastic standoffs.  Yes, it will work with plastic standoffs. But that was not the intent of the team that did the motherboard.  The Intel motherboard was designed,  layered  and prepared for metal standoffs.

But it will work without them. It will work in a Pizza box.
(Anybody remember the Apple Pizza box ad?)

BC_Programmer


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Re: use of Insulating Washers
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2011, 10:50:45 AM »
They are ground posts.
It is an Intel D845PEBT2

According to the spec sheet for that board, it follows the ATX 2.1 standard for mounting holes. The ATX 2.1 standard for mounting holes quite clearly states that the mounting holes are for "mechanical support only". You'll note specifically that the "only" means that it doesn't do anything else, such as being electrical/ground support, which would be utterly stupid and dangerous.

Also, in every board I've seen that features the metal "bracing" around the screwhole for mounting, the metal on the board is Aluminum or brass, or some other non-conductive alloy.

Geek: if you look closely at your power plug, you may notice that it has a third prong. Modern devices use this as their electrical ground. And if you removed that prong because you are living in a old house and somehow think your case and motherboard magically retrofits itself to use aluminum and brass to conduct ground voltage, well, I'm not really sure where to start.

If computers used the motherboard mounting holes and case for grounding, that would have two issues:

1st, the entire bloody thing would be a electrical and fire hazard. And what if the case is plastic? There is no provision in ATX that the case be metal, let alone a metal that conducts electricity; otherwise there would surely be documentation on the minimum conductivity of the case. How would a board conduct ground through a plastic  or aluminum case, for example? particularly using a aluminum or brass standoff, as they commonly are, to mitigate the possibility of the very thing you state happens by design.

2nd: where does the power supply get it's ground from? It's own case? But what if the case it is installed in is not a conductor? Then what? I submit the clearly preposterous idea that the power supply get's it's ground from this magical thing called the "GROUND" prong on any modern electrical socket. If you look, you'll notice, quite clearly, that all power supplies require the presence of this prong. Additionally, this grounding is passed along to the motherboard along the clearly confusingly named GROUND wires.

If I recall, however, you yourself have documented that you "hacked" your power cables because you didn't have a three-pronged cord to use. This doesn't magically mean that your computer will use the case as ground, even if it is a conductive material and your standoffs weren't made of brass or aluminum which they always are. It just means that none of your voltages will be measured properly, and who knows what else. I certainly wouldn't trust a machine in such a position.

Electrical power running to the case is not "being grounded" it's called a "short" and is not desirable, and can result in injury or death if mishandled. Or in the hands of somebody who thinks brass standoffs can conduct electricity through aluminum, and then through silicon, as well as a computer magically being earthed.
I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

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Re: use of Insulating Washers
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2011, 11:02:01 AM »
Quote
According to the spec sheet for that board, it follows the ATX 2.1 standard for mounting holes. The ATX 2.1 standard for mounting holes quite clearly states that the mounting holes are for "mechanical support only". You'll note specifically that the "only" means that it doesn't do anything else, such as being electrical/ground support...
Please document this.
The Intel board was designed for electrical and mechanical connection.
The design is explicit. (Need more more photos?)
At the present time all my stuff is now grounded. Including all electrical things. Except the coffee port. It is a two wire and was sold that way in the local store.

Furthermore, I may be very dumb, but I am not  stupid.
Not very much. :||

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Re: use of Insulating Washers
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2011, 11:48:11 AM »
Easy to test for yourself.  Place an ohmmeter between 2 mounting holes.

BC_Programmer


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Re: use of Insulating Washers
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2011, 11:58:53 AM »
Please document this.
http://www.formfactors.org/developer/specs/atx2_1.pdf
Quote
The Intel board was designed for electrical and mechanical connection.
Then it's documentation lies, because according to it's spec sheet it conforms to ATX 2.1. It either conforms to ATX 2.1 or it magically conducts electricity through aluminum and brass. Strangely I'm not seeing the feasibility of a case suddenly making the conductivity of Aluminum and brass high enough so they act as a ground. And if they did, would they not use another material? the material, judging from your images, is probably aluminum. If the case was designed to "conduct electricity to the case" (which would in fact prevent it from being FCC certified and thus saleable) why would they use metals of such low conductivity? Particularly metals that are by and large more expensive to get them plain old steel?


Quote
The design is explicit. (Need more more photos?)
Photos of what? you've photographed the metal ring around the mounting holes. Woop dee flipping doo. Even if we presume that the metal is a electrically conducive one, they are still pictures of a few isolated rings of metal that are still mounted using brass and or aluminum standoffs as stock. Note that the standoffs come with the case, not the motherboard, so I'm not sure how the desktop board that claims to be ATX 2.1 compliant would say "oh, but you have to use conducive mounting standoffs, because we want to pipe ground directly to the case, even though it probably won't be grounded and may even be comprised of a non-metallic substance. I also find it strange how this "design feature" absent from any other board I've ever seen or heard of going back to my 286 (which also used brass standoffs) also doesn't bear mention in it's Technical product specifications.


 




I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

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Re: use of Insulating Washers
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2011, 12:06:29 PM »
That was done earlier. All eight are intrinsically into the board stuff, not just a protective ting around the edge. It ties in the entire common return of the entire board, memory, PCI, CPU, I/I ports, including USB. the whole thing. It is, in fact, the common for the system. All readings are below then limit of my DVM and are not polarized. They are, in fact, ground points. Even ones that look like maybe the are not, really are.

Salmon Trout

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Re: use of Insulating Washers
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2011, 12:12:01 PM »
Quote
it magically conducts electricity through aluminum and brass.

Aluminium (UK spelling) is has 61% of the conductivity of copper; it is often used instead of copper in power cables for cost reasons. Brasses range from about 28% downwards. One should not conclude from this, however, that brass should never be used in electrical applications. There are instances where the superior tensile and machining characteristics of brass make it a better choice than copper as long as the sectional areas are increased proportionately to achieve the conductivity that a copper part would have in the application. A brass screw would have the conductivity of a copper one a bit more than one-quarter the sectional area. Considering the screws and standoffs  used to fasten motherboards to cases, that quite a current carrying capacity. Think of a copper wire that thick.


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Re: use of Insulating Washers
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2011, 12:17:04 PM »
BC, I have already read that many time. It never says the support holes are only for mechanical mounting.  In fact, it does not say you even have to use the holes for anything at all.
The board was, is, fabricated with  explicit  ground  points on the underside of the holes.
Next you will tell me that Rose bushes don't have thorns because you have never seen them.