Welcome guest. Before posting on our computer help forum, you must register. Click here it's easy and free.

Author Topic: Clouds  (Read 12325 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

TheWaffle

    Topic Starter


    Hopeful
  • Thanked: 4
    • Yes
  • Computer: Specs
  • Experience: Beginner
  • OS: Linux variant
Clouds
« on: May 16, 2012, 05:50:08 PM »
What is the best free cloud storage available?

Geek-9pm


    Mastermind
  • Geek After Dark
  • Thanked: 1026
    • Gekk9pm bnlog
  • Certifications: List
  • Computer: Specs
  • Experience: Expert
  • OS: Windows 10
Re: Clouds
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2012, 10:21:05 PM »
Do you want...
A. Speed
B. Size
C. Price
D. Security. (Strong and Private)

You can have any three, but not all four.
So which three do you want?

Free? This list is good: Free Online File- Storage

Another way is to just rent cheap server space and learn how to use FTP tools and do nit yourself. The cheap space is fast in the wee hours of the morning.


kpac

  • Web moderator


  • Hacker

  • kpac®
  • Thanked: 184
    • Yes
    • Yes
    • Yes
  • Certifications: List
  • Computer: Specs
  • Experience: Expert
  • OS: Windows 7
Re: Clouds
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2012, 06:01:18 AM »
Dropbox, Live Drive etc etc

evilfantasy

  • Malware Removal Specialist


  • Genius
  • Calm like a bomb
  • Thanked: 493
  • Experience: Experienced
  • OS: Windows 11
Re: Clouds
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2012, 08:41:09 AM »
Google.

Photos
Videos
Documents (Office)
Notebook
Calendar
Blogs
etc...

Now this. https://drive.google.com

Unlike many of the promising upstarpt online storage services that host your stuff one day then send out shutdown notices the next. I do believe Google is here to stay. ;)

BC_Programmer


    Mastermind
  • Typing is no substitute for thinking.
  • Thanked: 1140
    • Yes
    • Yes
    • BC-Programming.com
  • Certifications: List
  • Computer: Specs
  • Experience: Beginner
  • OS: Windows 11
Re: Clouds
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2012, 03:47:10 PM »
"The Cloud" is possibly one of the stupidest buzzwords to ever be applied to a 40 year old tech.
I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

patio

  • Moderator


  • Genius
  • Maud' Dib
  • Thanked: 1769
    • Yes
  • Experience: Beginner
  • OS: Windows 7
Re: Clouds
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2012, 04:14:36 PM »
"The Cloud" is possibly one of the stupidest buzzwords to ever be applied to a 40 year old tech.

It doesn't exist...except temporarily...just like real Clouds.
" Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "

Allan

  • Moderator

  • Mastermind
  • Thanked: 1260
  • Experience: Guru
  • OS: Windows 10
Re: Clouds
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2012, 04:19:59 PM »
Actually it's the hottest "technology" in corporate America right now. Most companies have a toe in the water, but the rest are making aggressive strides toward huge implementations. I'm in the middle of investigating the viability a major cloud initiative for a few dozen VERY large companies right now. Keep in mind that while remote computing and storage are indeed decades old, the big driver right now is the speed, bandwidth and availability of Ethernet that wasn't there before. We recently noticed a lot of companies installing Ethernet lines. When we asked why, they said it was in preparation for new cloud implementations.

IAAS, SAAS, PAAS, et  al are all unbelievably hot at the moment and only getting hotter.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 04:43:32 PM by Allan »

BC_Programmer


    Mastermind
  • Typing is no substitute for thinking.
  • Thanked: 1140
    • Yes
    • Yes
    • BC-Programming.com
  • Certifications: List
  • Computer: Specs
  • Experience: Beginner
  • OS: Windows 11
Re: Clouds
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2012, 05:11:54 PM »
It's a new buzzword label for what is an old and often used technique. The swooning over is a lot like the swooning by Sun for it's JavaSun network computers and the Apple Pippin, both of which were dismal failures. (mostly due to them being slow and far more expensive, as well as being separate hardware to begin with) In some ways, It's basically going back to what we used to have, in the 60's and 70's, with one minicomputer and multiple dumb terminals. In this case, the "dumb terminals" are our desktop computers and laptops. It is an interesting idea, but relies on the idea of offloading the task of storage to a set of other computers maintained by the cloud. For the price of being able to use the cloud over a few months one could easily get External hard drives for many times the size which can be used for backup, and a lot faster too. As a backup storage location "the cloud" (and really any online storage) is too slow to even consider as a frequent target to store backup data. Backing up to a tape drive would be faster. Free On-line storage services are even slower, though the companies typically have a good infrastructure. Nonetheless, even a high-speed 50Mbit connection would be slower than a backup to a local drive.

The best use case for online storage is not for backups, but when you need to share files or need to access something from other locations. But there are already a number of services devoted to doing this for various kinds of information, too- photobucket for images, youtube for videos, communities like github for program source code, etc. There are things like Skydrive and now Google Drive, DropBox, etc available with varying degrees of shell integration too. I don't, however, understand how this would fit into a corporate setting.

Regardless of any improved viability the term "Cloud" is idiotic and is nothing more than a marketing buzzword that has been pasted on technologies that have been used and leveraged for over 30 years. It just sounds whimsical now, which attracts the attention of the type of managers who combine the qualities of not knowing anything about technology and yet being able to form very strong opinions about it; very much the case of Java in the mid to late 90's, where managers who didn't know the first thing about programming "knew" that their next product just had to be in Java. And what happened then is happening now with the Cloud. Back then, demand for Java expertise skyrocketed as companies jumped on the java bandwagon. Unfortunately it soon became apparent that Java was not a cure-all panacea for software re-use, but not before hundreds of other companies made a killing selling Java productivity products. Some examples being "HotCoffee", Lotus Javabeans, and other idiotically named products following the theme of coffee-related words. We see the same thing now, as companies misunderstand the technology and try to apply it to everything, the demand for cloud services has risen, and other companies have taken up that challenge by offering those services.

The problems are analogous, of course, to what happened with Java it was not the cure-all panacea for software development and code re-use anymore than on-line storage is the cure-all panacea for distributed storage. Java eventually settled down, and it still has use, but it's seeing less and less usage in the thing it was first targeted at on the desktop machine, which was "web interactivity"; so far, that has been replaced by CSS and newer things like HTML5, while Java became far more common for usage in desktop applications and games, particularly as the technology behind it matured.

My point is that right now it's in the initial hype stage and companies would be wise to not get swept up, as many did, in the zealotry. By the time the Java dust settled, hundreds of companies had gone out of business and hundreds more had sprung up and disappeared in the same time frame; one has to wonder if "the cloud" may suffer a similar fate. At the very least I hope we revert to dropping the buzzword and just calling it "Online storage".

I'm of course not saying it's useless, of course, just that it's overhyped and that often plays into peoples assessment of a tech, colouring them in a positive manner. Java, for example, was extremely popular, despite it lacking multiple inheritance, proper properties, attributes, delegates, lambda's, anonymous inner classes (originally), operator overloading, and a myriad of other constructs; this was because of clever marketing that made it seem "bigger" then it really was.
I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

Allan

  • Moderator

  • Mastermind
  • Thanked: 1260
  • Experience: Guru
  • OS: Windows 10
Re: Clouds
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2012, 05:35:23 AM »
You're focusing on storage. Many companies, however, are focusing on SAAS and PAAS.

The cost per user of Microsoft 365 is significantly less than the corporate licenses for Office. And the ability to have added cycles as needed without having to purchase additional computers is extremely attractive to many businesses - especially those with large cyclical variances (think H&R Block, retail companies, etc).

Having said that, cloud storage is indeed appealing to many large companies. Having added resources for disaster recovery, archiving, etc. makes a great deal of sense - and access speed is not an issue.

Anyway, that's what we're seeing and clearly it's a direction in which every company in the Fortune 1000 and well beyond are headed.

BC_Programmer


    Mastermind
  • Typing is no substitute for thinking.
  • Thanked: 1140
    • Yes
    • Yes
    • BC-Programming.com
  • Certifications: List
  • Computer: Specs
  • Experience: Beginner
  • OS: Windows 11
Re: Clouds
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2012, 03:50:56 PM »
I don't even see how a cloud storage could properly supplement a established backup solution. It has other usages- such as with PaaS, if the company's storage requirements change over the year for whatever reason, on-line storage could be used for part of year to supplement their own on-site hardware. For backups, Of course, hard drives can fail locally, off-site backup tapes can be unreadable, etc. but restoring and saving backups is hours faster than uploading hundreds of gigabytes of information, regardless of the speed of the internet connection (Tape drives generally transfer at close to 340Megabits a second sustained).

Online storage moves the task of keeping your data safe from the IT administrators on your company's payroll to IT administrators of another who don't have a inherent stake in the safety of the data beyond it being their job to do so. Most companies should already have a backup strategy involving on-site and off-site full and incremental tape backups that have been tested, so- at least in my opinion- adding Cloud storage to this isn't very useful in general, but it can depend on the company's specific needs. But that's the problem, very rarely do people in the position to make such decisions in a company objectively consider the technology on it's own merits.

Quote
and access speed is not an issue.
I never said anything about access speed... I was talking about transfer rates, A 20GB storage tape with a transfer rate of 340megabits per second in some of the latest incarnations is going to be faster than transferring 20GB over even the fastest internet connection, unless both machines are in a Gigabit LAN. If it takes overnight, as it often does, to make a backup of a system, it's going to take a lot longer to either backup/archive to or from a on-line storage location. And problems during the transfer either way could cause various problems.

Another thing I feel, particularly with SaaS and cloud storage, is that it could present an issue for companies is that it increases the surface of attack. Software companies are semi-constantly having their source code leaked from their own internal networks from enterprising hackers. Backups stored on a cloud service will have that data as well. Naturally, there will be passwords, authentication, maybe encryption involved, but the fact is that so too did many of the companies that had their Intellectual Property leaked or stolen, so this increases the surface area; Hackers could get access to the private data either by doing what they have always been able to do and find some on-site wireless access point that some employee installed temporarily and forgot to remove; take advantage of a modem forgotten in some backroom somewhere that was installed to help Joe In accounting get access to his client's documents using a VPS- now they can apply the same things to the cloud service and get a lot of company data if they succeed.

Basically, putting that sort of data- regardless of how many authentications and encryptions and hashes are placed as barriers- is a fundamental issue because a target you can see is a lot easier to hack into than one that is only maintained on the internal network of the firewall. This also opens up such companies to man in the middle attacks that can place themselves between the company and the on-line service and reconstruct the data. So cloud storage services, particularly those utilized by businesses, had better have good security certificates. Usually a company keeps it's confidential data- such as the source code to any software they sell, business documents, marketing planning, etc on an internal network that is not internet exposed. Introducing On-line storage in this computing means that the data will in fact be internet facing by design. There is a good reason that Company intranets are isolated as much as possible from the internet at large.


Quote
Anyway, that's what we're seeing and clearly it's a direction in which every company in the Fortune 1000 and well beyond are headed.
The problem is assuming that the direction that every company is going is inherently a good idea or is going to end well. How many other fads and hypes in computing have come and gone? FORTH was supposed to usher in a new era of computing in the 80's. Did it? No. What happened to the companies that embraced it? They struggled and/or failed. Java was similarly poised to usher in some new world of computing in the 90's. It didn't. XML was supposed to completely change how programs communicate with one another. It didn't. And what happened to many of the companies that based their entire existence on it's success? they either died or went into other markets. FORTH still exists, but it has found usages that aren't as gradiose as the original claims. Java still exists, but it has found quite a bit of usage that is nowhere near as grandiose as the original claims, too. XML found usage in the original concept of AJAX, and has managed to establish itself- though not quite as much as it was predicted- as a sort of data format. But even Forth, Java, and XML are exceptions; for each of these, there are four that failed in similar time frames. (ADA was similarly poised to be the thing that everybody needed to understand around 25 years ago). These are programming languages, but the fact is that the same trend is easily seen elsewhere. Each one has advantages that are hyped, but they all have disadvantages that contributed to the reality. Nobody can predict the future no matter how many economics degrees they have and when you have people stating things like "the cloud is the future" you almost get the sense that they hope if they repeat it enough times it's bound to come true. I'm not saying it won't be prevalent, but I'm saying that to assume it will- and bank a lot on it- is foolhardy at best. Technologies need to develop and mature before being universally adopted, especially in domains where it wasn't a use-case as a experimental tech.

At this point there are so many cloud-based services it would be difficult to tease apart those offering services on the cloud that are actually designed with the cloud in mind and those that offer a cloud-based service that has all the disadvantages of the cloud without exploiting any of the advantages. This is not unlike the situation with Java, where companies scrambled to come out with something- anything, written in Java, which was usually rushed and far more unusable than anything else they offered.

I'm not disagreeing, of course, that there are advantages. But it will take a few years for the companies offering this service to mature, and for those just doing it to make their service trendy (example: BMC's SaaS "Remedy" software) to fail and move on to other things. This is due to some of them simply misunderstanding the tech and expecting it to be a silver bullet of some sort.

Most companies want to follow these things, because they assume "hey, everybody else is doing it so it must be a good idea". When hype overtakes a person's ability to appraise a technology objectively, then it's going to start to be used for the wrong things.

The reason for this comes right down to the fact that many such companies have people in positions of power who, despite knowing absolutely nothing about technology, are able to form strong opinions about it. Let's say there is a company in 1996. I use 1996 because in hindsight many of the predictions promised are patently absurd-. Now, SuperCo. is starting on the latest version of their award winning Word Processing software, which is currently written in C. One of the higher ups- who assumes that all technologies have equal capability, decrees the new version shall be rewritten in Java. Why does he think this? What he was thinking is probably something like this- "Java is a standard, I know it must be, since I read about it in the press all the time, and since it's a standard, I can't get in trouble for choosing it, and it also means that there are lots of people with experience in Java, so if somebody working for me quits, as programmers working for me mysteriously do, I can replace them easily".

It's not unreasonable, but it is based on an assertion that the technologies being weighed- in this particular case- are equivalent. They are not. IT technologies differ in capability and have various trade offs. (SaaS is universally cheaper, but you can't really know if the company responsible did it competently or if they are basically just providing you a Remote connection to the program being run normally on some server somewhere in kiosk mode). If they were all equivalent, he'd be right on target. Just use whatever everybody else is using. But they aren't equivalent.

The actual needs have to be weighed against the technologies capabilities. In the case of SaaS, if you are going to do it, do it properly. Don't just wrap your client application in some thin silverlight wrapper. Companies wanting to buy Software as a Service need to weigh the pros and cons heavily. Sure, SaaS is cheaper, but things like Office 365 still offer disadvantages; for example, One example being that it is tightly integrated, meaning one can only get the full advantages of the software if they rely on windows or windows-based products. Outlook(client) works with Lync Mail Servers without issues, but there are several disadvantages if using the 365 version of the software. Whether these affect a company depends on the company. A company that uses Windows-based servers will probably be fine, but many companies use sendmail-based mail exchange SMTP servers or things like LYNC server which won't work as smoothly with Outlook in Office 365. The integration of course is a advantage in many cases too, but it depends on each individual companies scenario. Painting the Cloud as a solution to something- anything- without knowing the details of the scenario would be irresponsible, but that is what many tech pundits are doing with Cloud-based solutions.

For PaaS, you stated yourself essentially that there are only specific use cases for it; those with differing processing requirements throughout the year. Obviously, if a company doesn't fit that use case, they will get all the disadvantages of PaaS- such as Customer captivity and a lower confidence in data security- but without any of the advantages to their business model.
I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

Geek-9pm


    Mastermind
  • Geek After Dark
  • Thanked: 1026
    • Gekk9pm bnlog
  • Certifications: List
  • Computer: Specs
  • Experience: Expert
  • OS: Windows 10
Re: Clouds
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2012, 04:19:46 PM »
From BC_Programmer
Quote
Painting the Cloud as a solution to something- anything- without knowing the details of the scenario would be irresponsible, but that is what many tech pundits are doing with Cloud-based solutions.
Yes.

patio

  • Moderator


  • Genius
  • Maud' Dib
  • Thanked: 1769
    • Yes
  • Experience: Beginner
  • OS: Windows 7
Re: Clouds
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2012, 05:32:14 PM »
Fog woulda been a better name...
" Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "

Geek-9pm


    Mastermind
  • Geek After Dark
  • Thanked: 1026
    • Gekk9pm bnlog
  • Certifications: List
  • Computer: Specs
  • Experience: Expert
  • OS: Windows 10
Re: Clouds
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2012, 05:47:00 PM »
Fog woulda been a better name...
Smog   ;D

TheWaffle

    Topic Starter


    Hopeful
  • Thanked: 4
    • Yes
  • Computer: Specs
  • Experience: Beginner
  • OS: Linux variant
Re: Clouds
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2012, 12:11:36 PM »
haze ::)

TheWaffle

    Topic Starter


    Hopeful
  • Thanked: 4
    • Yes
  • Computer: Specs
  • Experience: Beginner
  • OS: Linux variant
Re: Clouds
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2012, 12:11:50 PM »
had to get in there