Welcome guest. Before posting on our computer help forum, you must register. Click here it's easy and free.

Author Topic: Small hard drive cloning  (Read 16270 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

rogerk8

    Topic Starter


    Rookie

    • Experience: Beginner
    • OS: Windows XP
    Small hard drive cloning
    « on: October 08, 2012, 03:55:07 PM »
    Hi!

    I am trying to clone a small hard drive to a bigger one.

    I refuse to use available software for this because I want to know what is happening.

    And I love MS-DOS!

    Today I tried to add xcopy.exe to a floppy start-disc which windows XP could generate for me.

    The problem is that "the start-up floppy" generated "cannot run xcopy in DOS mode"

    So I have searched the web for older versions of xcopy which do not use the "DOS emulation" but haven't found none.

    I don't know the version of DOS of the start-discette but it is obviously an older one. And not windows XP based because it was there I first enconrtered the problem.

    I refuse to pull out the both hard drives and put them in another computer just to copy c: to e:.

    There's got to be a simpler way using xcopy from some unused drive.

    I have understood the hard way that DOS cannot copy DOS itself so the copying has to be done via another drive (f.i A:).

    But I do not understand why xcopy.exe couldn't be run from the start-up discette.

    I do however understand that the DOS version of xcopy (and fdisk) will have to be compatible with used DOS from the primitive start-up discette.

    It is amazing though that a finite space of 1.44MB could render any DOS functions whatsoever functionable!

    If I don't get this to work I will have to move both drives (20GB+120GB) to another computer just to be able to copy C: to E:.

    And when I'm done doing that, I will have to run fdisk /mbr just to create a Master Boot Record in the first sector of E:.

    As it looks right now, this is what I will have to do,

    Take care!

    Best regards, Roger

    patio

    • Moderator


    • Genius
    • Maud' Dib
    • Thanked: 1769
      • Yes
    • Experience: Beginner
    • OS: Windows 7
    Re: Small hard drive cloning
    « Reply #1 on: October 08, 2012, 04:43:11 PM »
    Quote
    I refuse to use available software for this because I want to know what is happening.

    This is a stubborn approach at best...
    Even if and when you do get xcopy to do this you will find it will not boot properly as it's not designed for the task...
    Carry on...
    " Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "

    foxidrive



      Specialist
    • Thanked: 268
    • Experience: Experienced
    • OS: Windows 8
    Re: Small hard drive cloning
    « Reply #2 on: October 08, 2012, 06:02:00 PM »
    Msdos versions of xcopy do not support long filenames. 

    There are scads of ways to clone a drive - a bootable cdrom and clone to a USB drive, is one.

    Use the correct tool at the right time.

    BC_Programmer


      Mastermind
    • Typing is no substitute for thinking.
    • Thanked: 1140
      • Yes
      • Yes
      • BC-Programming.com
    • Certifications: List
    • Computer: Specs
    • Experience: Beginner
    • OS: Windows 11
    Re: Small hard drive cloning
    « Reply #3 on: October 08, 2012, 06:46:41 PM »
    I am trying to clone a small hard drive to a bigger one.
    This  cannot be done with xcopy. Even if you could copy all the files, that isn't a strict clone.
    I refuse to use available software for this because I want to know what is happening.

    And I love MS-DOS!

    Quote
    The problem is that "the start-up floppy" generated "cannot run xcopy in DOS mode"
    the xcopy program you run from within windows is a windows application, not a DOS one. the XP startup floppy is in fact a Windows ME startup disk. The appropriate version of xcopy would be found in C:\Windows\Command on a machine running Windows ME.

    Quote
    I don't know the version of DOS of the start-discette but it is obviously an older one. And not windows XP based because it was there I first enconrtered the problem.
    Yep, answered that earlier in this post: XP creates a Windows ME startup disk.

    Quote
    I refuse to pull out the both hard drives and put them in another computer just to copy c: to e:.
    There's got to be a simpler way using xcopy from some unused drive.
    I have understood the hard way that DOS cannot copy DOS itself so the copying has to be done via another drive (f.i A:).
     
    Aside from the technical fact that xcopy doesn't really "clone" drives, a DOS version of Xcopy, running within DOS, will be almost useless for copying a drive running Windows XP- or any NT variant. This is because by default those systems use a NTFS file system, which older versions of DOS (including the startup disk XP makes) cannot read or write, or even know exists. And even if it could, the xcopy'd files would not work either, since that drive would not have a boot sector.



    Quote
    But I do not understand why xcopy.exe couldn't be run from the start-up discette.
    It's  Windows console program. Not all programs that run at the command like are "DOS" programs. In fact, very few are.

    Quote
    If I don't get this to work I will have to move both drives (20GB+120GB) to another computer just to be able to copy C: to E:.

    I've just used the included software provided with a new hard drive to copy it. Boot to the disc, partition to partition copy, wait, swap the drives, and reboot and I was rolling.


    Quote
    And I love MS-DOS!
    Some might argue that this is a sign of mental illness  ;D



    Quote
    I refuse to use available software for this because I want to know what is happening.
    This is an odd requirement. At what level do you need to know this, and why? xcopy  can show the files you copy, but that won't work the myriad of reasons described previously. the cloning tools provide a percent complete, which is really all you can expect since a proper clone tool has no knowledge of files or filesystems.
    I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

    ninjatex



      Beginner

      Thanked: 8
      • Call The Ninja
    • Experience: Guru
    • OS: Linux variant
    Re: Small hard drive cloning
    « Reply #4 on: October 08, 2012, 08:42:38 PM »
    I would suggest using an Ubuntu live cd (see Ubuntu.com) and cloning the disk with DD

    The command format is:

    dd if=/dev/olddrivename of=/dev/newdrivename

    You can find out your /dev/devicenames by opening a the disk utility. Note that if you do the command wrong you can lose all your data, so make sure you get it right! After you copy the data, you can use Disk Utility to "grow" the partition to use the entire drive. If you don't you'll be stuck with your old drive's capacity.

    There's a decent tutorial on this at http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/19446/make-a-drive-image-using-an-ubuntu-live-cd/
    Senior Technician at Call The Ninja Computer Repair
    Serving Eugene, OR
    http://www.calltheninja.com

    rogerk8

      Topic Starter


      Rookie

      • Experience: Beginner
      • OS: Windows XP
      Re: Small hard drive cloning
      « Reply #5 on: October 10, 2012, 03:42:00 PM »
      Hi!

      I have tried three stubborn approaches:

      1) XP-generated DOS start discette (neither xcopy or fdisk was included. I included xcopy by a search, copy and paste...)
      2) DOS 5.0 start discette
      3) DOS 6.22 start discette

      In case 1) I got "cannot run this program in DOS mode"

      In case 2) & 3) I got "invalid drive specification"

      I even tried to set c: as the active disk in the a: prompt but it echoed the same, i.e "invalid drive specification".

      All I need is a working DOS program in a: which can run xcopy.exe c: e: /s

      And I have tried and tried to make this happen.

      With regards to 2) & 3) I think the problem is NTFS. E: is formated in NTFS. The discettes are however formatted in FAT...

      I case 1) I can understand that the XP-DOS copied xcopy could not work because DOS is only emulated in later versions of Windows (XP).

      The problem with 2) & 3) got to have to do with wrong file formats. It is the only way a newbie like me can explain it.

      I have however understood that MS-DOS isn't free and that it seems like you actually can't use it.

      The only way seems to be to move the disks to another computer, set both to Slave and use the (c:) xcopy from there.

      The problem here is that the so called MBR (Master Boot Record) will not be copied.

      But if I reattach the larger disk to my original computer, I can run fdisk /mbr there generating a MBR on this system disk. Because I have understood, from Microsoft's homepage, that a MBR can only be created on the system disk (disk 0).

      Tomorrow I will check if fdisk.exe is available in my XP-DOS which I hope. But in review of another forum, I can actually copy & paste MBR to this new system disk using a hex-editor. But let's hope I don't have to do it in this kind of complicated way.

      Take care you all!

      Best regards, Roger

      patio

      • Moderator


      • Genius
      • Maud' Dib
      • Thanked: 1769
        • Yes
      • Experience: Beginner
      • OS: Windows 7
      Re: Small hard drive cloning
      « Reply #6 on: October 10, 2012, 03:53:39 PM »
      Did you actually read any of the info above ? ?
      " Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "

      Squashman



        Specialist
      • Thanked: 134
      • Experience: Experienced
      • OS: Other
      Re: Small hard drive cloning
      « Reply #7 on: October 10, 2012, 06:13:59 PM »
      This basically comes down to what everyone else has already said.  Use the right tool to do the job.  You are not using the right tool.  You are trying to use a tack hammer when the job really requires a much bigger hammer.

      BC_Programmer


        Mastermind
      • Typing is no substitute for thinking.
      • Thanked: 1140
        • Yes
        • Yes
        • BC-Programming.com
      • Certifications: List
      • Computer: Specs
      • Experience: Beginner
      • OS: Windows 11
      Re: Small hard drive cloning
      « Reply #8 on: October 10, 2012, 11:10:17 PM »
      1) XP-generated DOS start discette (neither xcopy or fdisk was included. I included xcopy by a search, copy and paste...)
      Doesn't work for reasons stated above. WinXP does not have the xcopy, or any MS-DOS executable, designed to run on MS-DOS 8 (which is the version that ME identifies as).
      Quote
      2) DOS 5.0 start discette
      3) DOS 6.22 start discette
      DOS versions before Windows 95OSRB only understand FAT, and cannot read (without third party software) either FAT32 or NTFS partitions. These show up as "Non DOS" partitions and you cannot read them and they are not assigned drive letters.

      Quote
      In case 1) I got "cannot run this program in DOS mode"
      The xcopy program you copied is a Windows 32-bit console application.

      Quote
      In case 2) & 3) I got "invalid drive specification"
      Plain DOS does not understand FAT32 or NTFS, one of which (probably the latter) is the File system you are using.

      Quote
      I even tried to set c: as the active disk in the a: prompt but it echoed the same, i.e "invalid drive specification".
      DOS cannot mount a drive whose filesystem it does not understand.

      Quote
      All I need is a working DOS program in a: which can run xcopy.exe c: e: /s
      You are not going to find one.

      Quote
      And I have tried and tried to make this happen.
      Some people define insanity as trying the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results. :P

      Quote
      With regards to 2) & 3) I think the problem is NTFS. E: is formated in NTFS. The discettes are however formatted in FAT...
      The problem is that NTFS is not understood by any of the boot disk versions of DOS. the ME version (DOS 8) understands FAT32, but none of them support NTFS and those appear to it as completely foreign partitions.

      Quote
      The problem with 2) & 3) got to have to do with wrong file formats. It is the only way a newbie like me can explain it.
      Incorrect Filesystems, but yes.

      Quote
      The only way seems to be to move the disks to another computer, set both to Slave and use the (c:) xcopy from there.
      That will not work either.

      Quote
      The problem here is that the so called MBR (Master Boot Record) will not be copied.
      The problem is that the computer you connect it to will not have read access to a good portion of the drive. Due to the Access Control list. If you want to clone a drive, use a tool designed for copying partitions, not copying files.

      Quote
      But if I reattach the larger disk to my original computer, I can run fdisk /mbr there generating a MBR on this system disk. Because I have understood, from Microsoft's homepage, that a MBR can only be created on the system disk (disk 0).
      This won't work. You cannot access NTFS partitions from the boot disks you have. fdisk /mbr will only work on a mountable, formatted drive, and it will write a DOS MBR, rather than a Windows NT MBR.

      Quote
      Tomorrow I will check if fdisk.exe is available in my XP-DOS which I hope.
      It's not. Windows NT uses "diskpart" for command prompt editing of partitions.

      Quote
      But let's hope I don't have to do it in this kind of complicated way.
      You are the one insisting on doing so. As me and several others have said, there is software available for free that does exactly what you want. Instead of accomplishing your goal in a mere hour, however, your insistence on not using that software for ad-hoc reasons has left your problem unresolved for several days.

      I do understand what you are doing- you are doing what you would have done with a DOS system. xcopy the drive with a sys command was usually enough to get it working. That is not the case. It hasn't overall become more complicated user-side if you use the proper tools.
      I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

      rogerk8

        Topic Starter


        Rookie

        • Experience: Beginner
        • OS: Windows XP
        Re: Small hard drive cloning
        « Reply #9 on: October 12, 2012, 04:31:01 PM »
        Hi!

        Thank you all!

        I especially want to say thanks to you BC_programmer. How much work didn't you put in just to answer my stupid questions? It was very interesting and educational. Thanks!!

        Today I finally tried a cloning program (clonemaxx). It didn't work. It obviously didn't like SCSI-drives which I was amazed to found out that the primary drive was. The other was an IDE (and that one the cloning program found but not the primary one).

        Then I thought I was really unlucky with this project of mine.

        The idea to move the disks to another computer, put them in slave mode and use the C: to copy the drive thereby got smashed. This is because it seemed unlikely that another computer would support both SCSI and IDE.

        Then my bright friend and collegue told me that you actually can install programs on e: and thereby stop using c:. With exception of the slight problem of windows by default wanting to store things on c: this has actually become my solution!

        Because let's face it, why do we want to clone a hard drive?

        Isn't it because of some semi-illegal purpose of copying all programs on a hard drive to be used in another computer (too)?

        If the statement that it is possible to install programs on another physical disk is true, then it is actually pointless with cloning!

        I have already made up my mind that I will move those folders which I know is movable to e:. And perhaps I will even move Documents & Settings. My friend showed me that you can actually order windows to do that. I think I will do it that way because hopefully windows will remember where the folder is (so that I do not have to change path everytime).

        As you can see above, the problem with a full drive, is academic!

        Cloning is pointless!  :D

        Take care!

        Best regards, Roger

        foxidrive



          Specialist
        • Thanked: 268
        • Experience: Experienced
        • OS: Windows 8
        Re: Small hard drive cloning
        « Reply #10 on: October 12, 2012, 10:56:05 PM »
        Because let's face it, why do we want to clone a hard drive?

        It's usually known as a backup.   

        Salmon Trout

        • Guest
        Re: Small hard drive cloning
        « Reply #11 on: October 13, 2012, 12:58:24 AM »
        Because let's face it, why do we want to clone a hard drive?

        One very good reason would be because of buying a new hard drive (e.g. to replace one that is too slow, too small, or unreliable). Another would be to make a standardised OS and software installation for deployment in an organisation.

        Quote
        Isn't it because of some semi-illegal purpose of copying all programs on a hard drive to be used in another computer (too)?

        No.






        rogerk8

          Topic Starter


          Rookie

          • Experience: Beginner
          • OS: Windows XP
          Re: Small hard drive cloning
          « Reply #12 on: October 15, 2012, 01:30:04 PM »
          Hi!

          I take back my stupid conclusion. Is this possible?  :D

          One thing I have discovered for myself is that my "solution" will not work for laptops.

          I appreciate you guys telling me that I was wrong and explained what I was wrong about.

          To summarize, cloning is (almost) neccesary when it comes to:

          1) Replacing a full laptop drive (no space within for yet another drive)
          2) Replacing an old drive (and perhaps even a slow one)
          3) Replacing a full ordinary drive (here windows however warns you when available disk space is less than some 500MB...)
          4) Making a standardised OS and software installation for an organisation (very good point)
          5) Making a simple backup (also a good point)

          I rest my case  ;)

          Finally I want to tell you that I tried cloning one final time today (because even I understand the benefits). The cloning program (Easyus) worked very well. It was just that my Compaq Evo W6000 actually had two types of dives. One SCSI and one IDE. And somehow the hardware preferred that C: should be a SCSI drive. I tried lots of things (including master jumper) but only got "read error" when I tried to boot from the cloned IDE drive.

          So today I have given up and actually managed to free 1GB from C:(20GB) by moving knowingly movable folders to E:(120GB). It is my humble hope that this will last some 10 years more (because all data and installations will from now be stored/done in E:).

          I thank you for all the help!

          Best regards, Roger
          PS
          I have actually experiensed 4) in the real world. It was when I worked for a very large tele-com company here in Sweden.

          rogerk8

            Topic Starter


            Rookie

            • Experience: Beginner
            • OS: Windows XP
            Re: Small hard drive cloning
            « Reply #13 on: October 16, 2012, 02:27:11 PM »
            Would this work?

            xcopy c: e: /s /exclude c:\windows

            8)

            Squashman



              Specialist
            • Thanked: 134
            • Experience: Experienced
            • OS: Other
            Re: Small hard drive cloning
            « Reply #14 on: October 16, 2012, 04:55:31 PM »
            Would this work?

            xcopy c: e: /s /exclude c:\windows

            8)
            To clone your hard drive? No! It would never be bootable and you wouldn't want to try and backup the page file.