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Author Topic: Mozilla cancels Modern UI version of Firefox for Windows 8.x  (Read 9120 times)

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evilfantasy

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Mozilla cancels Modern UI version of Firefox for Windows 8.x
« on: March 14, 2014, 09:16:29 PM »
That's got to hurt... Mozilla disses Microsoft -- cancels Modern UI version of Firefox for Windows 8.x

Quote from: BetaNews.com
"We've been watching Metro's adoption. From what we can see, it's pretty flat. On any given day we have, for instance, millions of people testing pre-release versions of Firefox desktop, but we've never seen more than 1000 active daily users in the Metro environment", says Johnathan Nightingale, VP Firefox.

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Re: Mozilla cancels Modern UI version of Firefox for Windows 8.x
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2014, 09:59:15 PM »
Well, one could try the new version of Opera.

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Re: Mozilla cancels Modern UI version of Firefox for Windows 8.x
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2014, 10:10:44 PM »
The problem is that Opera doesn't have nearly as many users as FF does.

February 2014 Market Share
  • Chrome 36.4%
  • Internet Explorer 19.6%
  • Firefox 18.3%
  • Safari 16.7
  • Opera 2.6%

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Re: Mozilla cancels Modern UI version of Firefox for Windows 8.x
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2014, 10:54:10 PM »
I didn't even know they had a windows 8 Modern UI style version.

This is no surprise considering the first public release of their Modern UI Version of Firefox was on February 7th, 2014.

Looking at the available beta, it provides very little advantage. Internet Explorer's Modern UI App for example can run on Windows RT. However, Firefox is not really an "App" in that sense and is still the same program appearing differently, so it doesn't really get much advantage over running on the standard desktop.

It's more likely they decided to redouble their efforts on Australis- which, by all accounts, is their attempt to make one of the worst possible User Interfaces in an Application ever. Since a lot of that design is based on the UI presented on phones and tablets, sans the good ideas, it makes sense that they would stop maintaining the Modern UI branch.

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Re: Mozilla cancels Modern UI version of Firefox for Windows 8.x
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2014, 09:07:46 AM »
From the article:
Quote
Sadly, Mozilla announces that it is cancelling the project, dealing Microsoft's Windows 8.x a significant blow.
I don't see how it's a significant blow.  With the ability to run any browser on the desktop, how is not having a Modern UI version of a browser unavailable a significant blow to Windows 8.x?

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Re: Mozilla cancels Modern UI version of Firefox for Windows 8.x
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2014, 10:22:38 AM »
From the article: I don't see how it's a significant blow.  With the ability to run any browser on the desktop, how is not having a Modern UI version of a browser unavailable a significant blow to Windows 8.x?
Mozilla thinks very highly of themselves.
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Re: Mozilla cancels Modern UI version of Firefox for Windows 8.x
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2014, 10:47:14 AM »
Mozilla didn't write the article.

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Re: Mozilla cancels Modern UI version of Firefox for Windows 8.x
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2014, 11:10:46 AM »
Mozilla didn't write the article.
Fair point. It would be more accurate to say that many people think highly of Mozilla. (Perhaps too highly- it's a browser, not a way of life- and it's moving towards becoming a chrome-clone of sorts if Australis drops)
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Re: Mozilla cancels Modern UI version of Firefox for Windows 8.x
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2014, 11:15:30 AM »
From the article: I don't see how it's a significant blow.  With the ability to run any browser on the desktop, how is not having a Modern UI version of a browser unavailable a significant blow to Windows 8.x?

Without Firefox support Microsoft Modern UI loses millions of potential users willing to even think about switching from Desktop Mode to Modern UI.

Mozilla's Metro move shows that modern apps belong in the mortuary


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Re: Mozilla cancels Modern UI version of Firefox for Windows 8.x
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2014, 12:05:41 PM »
The articles all seem to think that the Modern UI is supposed to replace the Desktop, which is not the case. the Desktop is not present only for compatibility. It's a sympathetic relationship sort of like how we had the Start Menu as well as Windows Explorer itself.

In any case, with regards to Firefox, here's the thing:

Before I even saw this article, I didn't even know there WAS a Modern UI-built version of Firefox. Their argument that they haven't seen many people using it is probably related to the fact that they have done very little to actually promote it, and instead their metrics for why they decided not to release it are based on not only people who are using a Beta/nightly version of firefox, but who are also running Windows 8.x AND select the "Relaunch in Firefox for Windows 8 Touch" file option. That is simply a very poor metric on which to base the decision.

IN either case, I fond the touch version interesting. It was very similar to Internet Explorer's Modern UI style, though it clearly has less polish (the tab foldout images are stretched vertically in an odd way, it lacks the capability (as far as I can tell) to view downloads, etc.

As far as I'm concerned applications using the Modern UI make the most sense on RT- the reason being that they simply have fewer options than their desktop counterpart, and additionally the style is more conducive to touch usage than the desktop version (or desktop applications in general). Of course Modern UI Also (IMO) works fine on the desktop (my experience being mostly just fiddling with options in windows 8 and perhaps most prominently the Modern-UI style of Office 2013)
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Re: Mozilla cancels Modern UI version of Firefox for Windows 8.x
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2014, 12:34:44 PM »
The articles all seem to think that the Modern UI is supposed to replace the Desktop, which is not the case.

How isn't it the case? Microsoft is trying to, or at least wanting to, replace the traditional Desktop Mode with the Modern UI. If not then the Modern UI has no logical reason to exist because the Desktop has worked just fine for many years. Apple & Andriod are very successful without a new UI to use with computers. You could plug in most mobile devices to a PC well before the Modern UI. Touch screen PC's were available long before the Modern UI. I'm sure there are other examples as well. Microsfts' vision of the future is "one Operating System to rule them all" and is driven by the Modern UI, not Desktop Mode.

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Re: Mozilla cancels Modern UI version of Firefox for Windows 8.x
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2014, 02:15:12 PM »
How isn't it the case?
Modern UI Applications are designed to complement, not replace, Desktop Applications. (No literature from MS I can find implies otherwise)

Quote
Microsoft is trying to, or at least wanting to
The Modern UI Components are tailored for casual users and usage on tablets and touch-screens as their primary usage scenario. This is why with every single Desktop Application that has a Modern-UI equivalent, the modern-UI equivalent has far fewer features. The goal is of shared code-bases a 'la the Threshold project.  the two are considered complementary (for the obvious reason that no Modern UI app could be a Modern UI app and rival the capabilities of a Desktop application. In the same vein, no Desktop application could keep all it's options and capabilities while still remaining touch-friendly and accessible.). Bear in mind that the Modern UI and it's various libraries and technologies is catered almost entirely for the creation and distribution of Windows Store Applications. The idea being that general applications can be created via the Modern UI architecture and be run on tablets, smartphones, and other Windows-8-based devices, but still be able to run just as well on desktops equipped with Windows 8. Of course those mobile devices will not have a desktop (and they never did, not in the traditional sense) but Desktop computers have had a desktop and they need to remain compatible. Microsoft does not have a history of making clean breaks with old software and Windows 8 is no exception.

This is also not a case akin to WoW32, wherein Windows 3.1 applications were still runnable in Windows 95, but only for compatibility reasons and those applications were encouraged to be ported to the new API (Win32). For Desktop Applications Microsoft is not issuing a similar "Call to action" as they did with the Win32 API to move those Win32 Application to the Modern UI because the Modern UI is not something that can be used for all types of applications, particularly with the security limitations that a Modern UI Application must adhere to- in particular, Modern UI Application cannot access the local file system nor can they use third-party libraries. The design purpose is effectively that Modern UI Applications won't actually have any particularly heavy logic and will just be the user-interface towards some back-end web service- since HTTP/Asynchronous XML is pretty much the only thing a Modern UI Application can actually do.

Quote
If not then the Modern UI has no logical reason to exist because the Desktop has worked just fine for many years.
The Desktop has worked fine for many years on desktop computers. The goal is to have a single set of Windows Editions based on a single codebase and with similar capabilities. A Application written for Windows 7 cannot run  on Windows Phone 7, and a App designed for Windows Phone 7 cannot run on Windows 7. The goal is to allow a developer to select their target(s) and develop in a way that makes that product most accessible with the least effort. If they want to target Phones and Tablets as well as desktops, they can create a Windows Store Application. If their application requires more fine-grained capabilities, more significant options, or references other libraries that cannot be abstracted to a web service effectively, than it can be made as a standard desktop application. And of course applications can do both, as Internet Explorer does.

I downloaded the source to the Firefox beta with Modern UI capabilities, and from what I can tell it is two separate apps- the modern UI version written in javascript, and the desktop version of course using C++. More interestingly, however, is that the touch/Modern UI Firefox application can only run on x86/x64 machines that can execute .exe files, so effectively Firefox's Modern UI can only ever be run on desktop systems (the js files rely on some C++ stub programs, for whatever reason). It seems that the push to create it was based on the mistaken impression that the Modern UI is going to replace the desktop. None of the Microsoft literature I can find seems to indicate this; even their own Development tools (Visual Studio 2013) only provide a few templates for creating Modern UI applications and they are not the default option (The default project type being WPF, which creates desktop applications)

Quote
You could plug in most mobile devices to a PC well before the Modern UI. Touch screen PC's were available long before the Modern UI.
Using a standard desktop application with a touch-screen is not exactly a friendly experience. Buttons that are otherwise easy to click with a mouse pointer  are tiny when you have to press them with a finger. scrollbars have even smaller elevators and arrows, and the paradigms of dragging do not always translate to a touchscreen very well.

So yes, you are correct that Touch Screen PCs were available before Windows 8 was released. That much is obvious.

No desktop Operating System has had any particularly large amount of thought put into how it is used with a touch screen. Windows 7 made it's changes to the taskbar but the fact they are easier to tap is probably a side-effect and the real reason was a desktop-oriented design decision. It's fundamentally the same as when the mouse was introduced. Operating Systems and Application 'supported' them by having very clunky usage cases that basically just acted like the mouse was using the arrow keys and invoking program actions; for example you click on a menu and it drops down. Same for Touch screens- it basically just pretended it was a mouse. You could not perform multi-finger gestures or touch-screen specific capabilities simply because the Application pretended the touch-screen was just your everyday mouse, just as early applications pretended a mouse was just performing certain keystrokes. It was not until we had operating systems that took full advantage of the unique capabilities of the mouse (Mac OS) that it's potential for usability was truly unleashed. I think it's the same thing now for touch-screens, but Microsoft is combining two efforts- the threshold effort to merge multiple codebases and allow applications to target multiple platforms at the same time, as well as providing full support for touch-screens and their own features, rather than just pretending it's a mouse like previous versions or other Operating Systems often do, and implementing "touchscreen" features such as gestures by simply making them Mouse-centric capabilities (OS Lion, as I recall).


Quote
Microsofts' vision of the future is "one Operating System to rule them all" and is driven by the Modern UI, not the Desktop.
Threshold (the effort to provide a single target that applications can develop against to run on multiple platforms) is complemented by the Modern UI by virtue of the fact that Phones, tablets, and other devices simply can't run x86 applications, and the desktop-centric UI Design is abysmal to use in that environment. Microsoft has been writing Operating Systems for handhelds and pen and touchscreen devices pretty much since they came out and they learned that applying their desktop-oriented paradigms to touch or pen-centric devices with limited user-input is a very poor approach. Modern UI is essentially the design concepts of the Windows Phone OS's Silverlight/XAML expanded and made available to desktop machines. I don't think there is a very string basis on which to assert that Microsoft intends to completely replace the x86/x64 Desktop/windowed applications, since that basis is essentially that apps written for the phone or tablet will also run on the desktop OS.

Quote
"The full capabilities of Windows will continue to be available to you, including the Windows Explorer and Desktop"
-Julie Larson-Green, Corporate Vice President of Windows Experience Team on a news article pre-BUILD 2013.

Many articles in my searches make the implication- or state outright, that the capability to run standard desktop applications is only available for "compatibility" or it is now "legacy". This makes the confusion a bit understandable- however, This contradicts pretty much every official statement that I can find from Microsoft officials as well as their actions.

As far as I'm concerned the "Start Screen" is basically just the replacement for the start menu. When you open Start you get taken to the start screen; when you launch something you either stay within the Modern UI environment (if you launch a Store App) or you are taken back to the desktop; semantically equivalent to the previous start menu. It kind of merges a fully-folded out All Programs Menu with the Win7 Start Menu and fills the screen. Microsoft's other applications (Visual Studio, Office, SQL Server) are all still standard desktop applications. Fundamentally, the Modern UI is designed primarily for content consumption. Whereas the desktop can do both.

Since Visual Studio is never going to have a App version, it's simply ridiculous to suggest that the capability to run desktop applications is maintained purely for compatibility or legacy purposes.
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evilfantasy

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Re: Mozilla cancels Modern UI version of Firefox for Windows 8.x
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2014, 02:45:20 PM »
I know we are looking at things differently. Me as an end user and you an end user and as a developer. But there are too many contradictions.

This being just one.
Modern UI Applications are designed to complement, not replace, Desktop Applications. (No literature from MS I can find implies otherwise)

The Desktop has worked fine for many years on desktop computers. The goal is to have a single set of Windows Editions based on a single codebase and with similar capabilities.

It's meant to compliment not replace? No. It's meant to replace. There would be no need for Modern UI if they were not trying to replace the traditional Desktop Mode. The route of migration for end users is obvious with the introduction of the Charm Bar in place of the Start Menu.

Specifically.
The goal is to have a single set of Windows Editions based on a single codebase and with similar capabilities.

That's my point. "One OS to rule them all" can't be achieved when there is still such a high demand for the traditional Desktop experience. Modern UI is very far from the reality that MS wants it to be. Mozilla dropping support equals millions of Desktop Mode users who were already unwilling to try and adopt Modern UI even less likely to do so any time soon.

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Re: Mozilla cancels Modern UI version of Firefox for Windows 8.x
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2014, 04:47:52 PM »
But there are too many contradictions.
This being just one.
...
Quote
Modern UI Applications are designed to complement, not replace, Desktop Applications. (No literature from MS I can find implies otherwise)

The Desktop has worked fine for many years on desktop computers. The goal is to have a single set of Windows Editions based on a single codebase and with similar capabilities.
It is not a contradiction, though.

Quote
It's meant to compliment not replace?
The Modern UI complements the standard desktop in the same way that Keyboard accessibility complements the standard mouse-oriented UI. Most UI elements can be accessed with the keyboard. Some elements cannot and others have no equivalent keyboard shortcut. Some keyboard shortcuts have no equivalent Menu item or toolbar button. I find it to be quite similar when ti comes to Modern UI; Modern UI and Store Applications are not preferred by Microsoft over Desktop Applications, because Windows Store Applications are heavily limited in what they can actually do; the Modern UI is more akin to the lowest common denominator when it comes to creating an app that runs on multiple Windows platforms. Compared to, say, Apple; whereby you can design a App for running on iPod/iPhones/iOS, but that app cannot run as-is on Mac OSX, instead you need to effectively rewrite it. Modern UI's limitations on the desktop are entirely and almost exclusively the result of the Modern UI being that lowest common denominator designed for use across platforms.

Quote
No. It's meant to replace. There would be no need for Modern UI if they were not trying to replace the traditional Desktop Mode.
"There would be no need for toolbars and menus of they aren't designed to replace keyboard shortcuts". Same idea. Toolbars and menus made features and capabilities more discoverable and accessible within a mouse-oriented UI; keyboard shortcuts were not kept in for compatibility, but because they had their own advantages.

Consider, for example, how we typically copy and paste. Very few of us, I would presume, copy and paste by using Edit->Copy and Edit->Paste. The more typical case is that we use Control-C and Control-V. Keyboard shortcuts are equals in terms of the UX design guidelines. So too are standard Desktop applications equal to Modern UI (Windows Store) Applications. Windows 8 and 8.1 present guidelines for desktop application. Comparing it with the equivalent document for Windows Store we see that they have widely different capabilities. Many of the limitations presented on the Store Applications are designed to prevent Store (Modern UI) Applications from only working on Desktop-capable Versions of the OS. (eg. "Windows Store apps must not communicate with local desktop applications or services via local mechanisms, including via files and registry keys."). Conversely, The Desktop guidelines require the opposite- "It must not communicate with Windows Store apps via local mechanisms, including via files and registry keys".

The reason for this separation is because the Windows Desktop and the Modern UI/Windows Store present not one but two different platforms, which themselves create two different software ecosystems. This is why we are never going to see versions of Visual Studio or Office (Office 365 notwithstanding) that are Modern UI Apps. (Not to be confused with desktop applications that manually implement Modern-UI esque features, such as Office 2013).

Quote
The route of migration for end users is obvious with the introduction of the Charm Bar in place of the Start Menu.
The charms bar does not replace the start menu. the Start Screen replaces the Start Menu. the Charms bar is most similar to the "home" menu's that are accessible from mobile devices regardless of what is currently running on the device.

Quote
That's my point. "One OS to rule them all" can't be achieved when there is still such a high demand for the traditional Desktop experience.
There is 0 demand for the traditional desktop experience on tablets or mobile devices. That's why they don't have a desktop. You are continuing to assert that the Modern UI is designed to replace the desktop, when it is clear they are two completely separate platforms with two completely different design goals. To make such assertions would require evidence beyond the easily falsifiable "There would be no need for Modern UI if they were not trying to replace the traditional Desktop Mode" (falsifiable by simply creating analogous examples- "There would be no need for toolbars and buttons if they were not supposed to replace the keyboard", or "There would be no need for game controllers if they were not supposed to replace mice and keyboards" or "there would be no need for USB Flash Drives if they were not supposed to replace hard Disk Drives", and so on. I find it to be a faulty premise.

"There would be no need for Modern UI if they were not trying to replace the traditional Desktop Mode"

The intent of the Modern UI is to provide a platform that is consistent and available across various devices.

-This does not mean the Desktop (there is no "desktop mode"...) and the applications that run within it are being pushed aside. To argue that is to argue that there is some sort of implicit, mutual exclusivity; that a Operating System must support a homogeneous platform. This is simply not the case; Windows 8/8.1 supports two platforms: Windows Store (Modern UI) And Desktop Applications. Mobile and tablet devices can run Windows Store applications. Desktop applications run on desktops, and while you can run Windows Store Applications on those desktops you would generally only do so if they did not have a desktop application. Any application published to the Windows Store instantly supports 3 platforms, including the desktop. Imagine if OSX could also run iOS applications and that's generally what we've got- OSX would continue to be a platform to develop against for many programs, but the fact that you can run iOS Apps simply gives you more options.
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Re: Mozilla cancels Modern UI version of Firefox for Windows 8.x
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2014, 05:33:18 PM »
The intent of the Modern UI is to provide a platform that is consistent and available across various devices.

Exactly. Desktop Mode doesn't fit the cross platform OS so they can't make a more forceful push on end users to go to Modern UI. Not yet anyway.

Windows 7 and Vista are years away from losing MS support so they can't transition everyone away from the traditional Windows OS. The end game for MS isn't to support both Modern UI and Desktop versions of Windows.