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Author Topic: need more help buying new coputer  (Read 9927 times)

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Track



    Apprentice

    Re: need more help buying new coputer
    « Reply #30 on: January 16, 2009, 06:46:34 PM »
    Oh for the love of.. not this again. It seems like every few months I have rain in the newbies on this forum.

    Yes, if Quad SLi was around the same price (or around a reasonable price for a GPU) as SLi, then there would be no reason not to get Quad SLi.

    But Quad SLi doesn't even come close to being a worthy comparison because it is HIGHLY inefficient, where as having 4 cores gives you twice the performance of 2 cores. It does not matter if a program can utilize more than a single core, it's that Windows itself can use as many threads as it wants. You have dozens of programs and mini-programs run by the OS itself running at any second, especially in Vista and having twice the power to handle them for around the same price - just makes sense.

    It's simply ridiculous not to buy a Quad core CPU. What reason do you have for not buying it? You'd reach pretty much the same clocks by overclocking. You'd get no worse performance. You'd spend almost the same amount of money. A year ago, it would have been a debate, but NOW.. not buying a Quad core is simply the dumbest thing one can do. Look at Intel and their new i7 line - do you see a dual-core CPU offering? No, of course not.

    Most programs don't use more than a single core. So ask yourself - why should I get a single-core CPU. And why don't you? Because that would be a waste when you can have 2 cores, which are at worst 0% better and at best 100% better, and the companies know this which is why they no longer make single-core CPU's.

    I could go on, but the point is this - if you buy a dual-core CPU you cannot be my friend. Yes, that's right. Friendship with me will not be a possibility if you waste your money on a dual-core CPU.

    Where do I begin? Windows uses as many threads as it can, ok, but windows doesn't really require 4 threads.  I'm not saying a quad core is a waste, I use one personally, and this certainly wasn't intended as a personal attack which you seem to have taken it as.  You say they have the same clocks when overclocking, but you do realize that buying a board that can overclock efficiently will bump up the price even more. This specific person is probably new to the overclocking scene, seeing as how he is hesitant to peice his computer together himself.  As far as intels new i7 line (first off LOL for even bringing that up) those are intended to be used as high end cpus.  That's like asking why Cadillac doesn't release a car from the 1980's next to their escalades.  The single core comparison is, again, an ineffective one because both of us are aware that games require more than a single core CPU at this point which would be the reason for not purchasing one. Unless of course you didn't notice that, in which case I'm glad I could fill you in.

    Oh and you not being somebodies friend will make them reconsider their purchase I'm sure.

    Quote from: Track
    Listen, either save up the money and get a GTX 295, or find a 260 for ~250$ and if you're lucky a 280 for around the same price, like we saw at Buy.com just a few days ago.

    The 295, really?  You want him to pay $100 more over the 4870x2 for ~ 5% more performance?  I'm not an ati fanboy, as I own an nvidia card, but the 295, at it's current pricepoint fails on price/performance.

    I'm done arguing with you over your illogical posts, I'll let somebody else handle them from here on out.

    It's amazing how useless logic is in the PC realm without experience. You, sir, can no longer be my friend.

    Oh, and for the 295, since I take that as a personal insult for I intend to buy one - the GTX 295 is composed of two 55nm GT200 cores. If you remember from a while back the GTX 280 was king by a long shot. When they released the 4870X2, GTX 280 SLi still ruled by the same difference. Now, when they release GTX 280 SLi that can clock higher and maintain better latency on a single board, the only thing keeping the GTX 295 from a 20-25% difference in performance is the crappy drivers. This, my little friend, cannot be understood with logic alone, but rather with experience which you do not have and cannot understand nor comprehend. Furthermore, the Superscalar architecture on the RV770 core is still something I'm iffy about, even whilst considering the awesome amount of ALU's, and thus the GTX 295 is currently the only good choice. In about a week, its price will fall to just 5% higher than the 4870X2, mark my words, and the drivers will get their 25% performance difference, and if you had a heart, a soul or a brain, you'd feel pretty *censored* stupid for going up against ME.
    That's Right, I am a Graphics Card Expert!

    BC_Programmer


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    Re: need more help buying new coputer
    « Reply #31 on: January 16, 2009, 06:50:11 PM »
    It's amazing how useless logic is in the PC realm without experience. You, sir, can no longer be my friend.

    experience? you mean, "use the newest card, motherboard, and CPU you can buy. I don't care if you can afford it" doesn't say much about experience.

    it's called getting the most bang for ones buck. Not buying just manufactured video cards and CPU's at sky-high prices simply for the month long thrill of having the best available. The feeling wears off when, a week later, the price is less then half of what it was.
    I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

    Track



      Apprentice

      Re: need more help buying new coputer
      « Reply #32 on: January 16, 2009, 06:51:53 PM »
      It's amazing how useless logic is in the PC realm without experience. You, sir, can no longer be my friend.

      experience? you mean, "use the newest card, motherboard, and CPU you can buy. I don't care if you can afford it" doesn't say much about experience.

      it's called getting the most bang for ones buck. Not buying just manufactured video cards and CPU's at sky-high prices simply for the month long thrill of having the best available. The feeling wears off when, a week later, the price is less then half of what it was.

      Oh you..  ;)
      That's Right, I am a Graphics Card Expert!

      BC_Programmer


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      Re: need more help buying new coputer
      « Reply #33 on: January 16, 2009, 06:56:29 PM »
      say, does anybody want my top of the line ATI 3d Rage Pro? it has a overwhelming 8192 kilobytes of VRAM. exhilaratingly slow speed, and completely unReliable Drivers. I'll trade it for either a old cat or a comb.

      Trades for old bits of fluff or string will be considered as well.
      I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

      Track



        Apprentice

        Re: need more help buying new coputer
        « Reply #34 on: January 16, 2009, 07:19:14 PM »
        Oh, to heck with it. I'm having too much fun!  ;D

        Where do I begin?
        Well, you could get yourself a flame retardant umbrella, my fine friend.
        Windows uses as many threads as it can, ok, but windows doesn't really require 4 threads.
        Require? What does that even mean? Windows will run twice as fast with twice as many cores. Vista especially. You have a Quad-core CPU - look at the load on each core. It's half what it would be if you used a Dual-core CPU, or disabled half your cores.
         I'm not saying a quad core is a waste, I use one personally, and this certainly wasn't intended as a personal attack which you seem to have taken it as. 
        Oh, but I am sure that it was intended now. At least I sure hope so! Otherwise this counterattack will seem unjust, and then I'll have to leave this barren interwebs-related world and retreat to the cavern side where wine and my woman await for me.
        You say they have the same clocks when overclocking, but you do realize that buying a board that can overclock efficiently will bump up the price even more. This specific person is probably new to the overclocking scene, seeing as how he is hesitant to peice his computer together himself. 
        Are you suggesting that Quad-Core CPU's have lower clocks at stock and thus require overclocking to reach the same clock speeds as Dual-Core CPU's? That's ridiculous. You barely need an overclocking board to overclock by 10%, and even if you set it at stock, 4 cores will still beat 2 where it counts and where it does not, the cores would still be powerful enough to handle anything, for single-threaded application do not require much power.
        As far as intels new i7 line (first off LOL for even bringing that up) those are intended to be used as high end cpus. 
        Let me guess, you saw "i7" and thought "I can't afford the newest tech." Well, guess what - the i7 920 only costs 300$, that's the same price as a good Yorkfield. The only difference is you need more expensive boards and RAM, but as I have debated with many people over this matter - it's worth it.
        That's like asking why Cadillac doesn't release a car from the 1980's next to their escalades. 
        Well, I'm sure your knowledge of automobiles is quite intriguing in many circles, but to us low-down simple capacitator-infused hard-wire circuit fanboys, it's all a bit high-tech.
        The single core comparison is, again, an ineffective one because both of us are aware that games require more than a single core CPU at this point which would be the reason for not purchasing one. Unless of course you didn't notice that, in which case I'm glad I could fill you in.
        What games are those? You'll be surprised as to how many games and programs still only make use of a single core. In fact, more do than any other. And the line of games that used only 2 cores were few, back in 2005-2006. Now its either 3-4 cores or only a single core. And if you're arguing that CPU manufacturers make CPU's based solely on game performance, then why are you even against a Quad-core? That's its main use!
        Oh, and thank you for filling me in. I.. don't know where I'd be without n00bs mouthing off at me. And I mean that seriously.
        Oh and you not being somebodies friend will make them reconsider their purchase I'm sure.
        Reconsider their purchase nothing! Why, it should have them falling down to their knees in heavy flowing tears over their cowardly and unrighteous mistake. In fact, you should be weeping right now just for.. well, being the sarcastic dipshit you are.

        Have a nice day. I know I will.

        That's Right, I am a Graphics Card Expert!

        Track



          Apprentice

          Re: need more help buying new coputer
          « Reply #35 on: January 16, 2009, 07:21:20 PM »
          say, does anybody want my top of the line ATI 3d Rage Pro? it has a overwhelming 8192 kilobytes of VRAM. exhilaratingly slow speed, and completely unReliable Drivers. I'll trade it for either a old cat or a comb.

          Trades for old bits of fluff or string will be considered as well.

          Oh shoot, I had a used cat but I eated her. Now all I has are two bottle rockets and a piece of silly string attached to what appears to be a long, smooth shaft.. of styropfoam, made to look like a piece of candy.
          That's Right, I am a Graphics Card Expert!

          BC_Programmer


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          Re: need more help buying new coputer
          « Reply #36 on: January 16, 2009, 07:49:51 PM »
          Quote
          Windows will run twice as fast with twice as many cores.
          not true for synchronization reasons... it will run faster, but only when you have four programs doing something CPU intensive at once... Burning a CD, building a BSP tree on a large doom map... two malware processes.... etc...


          It could also benefit programs with multiple threads (IMO... multiple threads just means a lack of skill by the programmer. It introduces WAY more problems then it solves).

          But- most people don't run four CPU intensive programs most of the time. They use one program while another sits in the background idle.

          web servers, will get the full performance gain out of extra processors, since they almost always sit at 100%... they would be able to service that many requests simultaneously)

          Does doubling the core increase performance? Basically, you can creates statistics that prove any point of view... one could code something in such a way as to run slower on multiple cores (use up a both prefetch caches with a large amount of flow control and JMP's, etc) and in fact some programs are simply badly designed for multiple cores. the actual increase in performance decreases logarithmically as you add more cores. (for example, 8 Cores would be about 10% faster then 4, but costs twice as much. (even more since the motherboard probably wouldn't be cheap either)







          I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

          ThrowingShapes



            Beginner

            Re: need more help buying new coputer
            « Reply #37 on: January 16, 2009, 09:31:56 PM »
            Are you suggesting that Quad-Core CPU's have lower clocks at stock and thus require overclocking to reach the same clock speeds as Dual-Core CPU's? That's ridiculous.

            Well lets take a look at that, shall we?

            You'd reach pretty much the same clocks by overclocking. You'd get no worse performance. You'd spend almost the same amount of money.

            Doh. After this blatant contradiction, I feel no need to continue mocking your uninformed posts.

            In addition to this member ranting about his supposed knowledge (which I guess goes as far as "buy the most expensive parts" and "whats's a budget") I've been looking at a potential build for you.

            Monitor:http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824005119 ~$210

            OS: Well I can't really suggest one to you. I presonally like Vista over xp for gaming, and wether or not you want 32 or 64 bit is up to you. ~$120

            PSU:http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817341002 ~$50 after MIR

            Case:http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811144205~$85 after MIR, I've heard it was a pretty good case for  the price.

            DVD/CD drive: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827135176 ~$20 There's a few cheaper ones, but I trust Asus more than LiteOn.

            HDD:http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136283  ~$90    750gb would likely be enough for gaming, don't know how many games you own, but I wouldn't expect it to be run out of space quickly.

            Motherboard: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131339 ~$190 This is a pretty solid board.  It is very expandable when you plan to make upgrades further down the road.

            CPU: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103249 ~$148  Thought it was a pretty good deal myself, A little power hungry but it gets the job done.

            RAM: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231184 ~$65 G Skill is pretty reputable.  If you intend on running a 32-bit os instead of a 64 however you could always buy less than 4gb, and let your GPU take some heat.

            GPU: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814150339 ~$275 There's been alot of talk about this, especially from tracker.  On a 20" monitor, which I recall you metioning, your resolution will be 1680x1050.  A 295 will not only cost twice the price, but will not yield much of a performance gain over this card at this resolution.  He may not have taken into account that these new high end cards shine at high resolutions/ high AA settings. Or he may have been blinded by blatant ignorance. (or both?)  The high end cards simply aren't worth the money at 1680x1050. The 4870 is a pretty nice card, although if you're building this rig to play crysis (but who would ever build a rig just to run crysis?) you can always upgrade to a 4870x2 or the  :-X 295 :-X.  Be aware that the 4870x2 will eat power supplies alive if given the chance, I wouldn't suggest one under 650-700.

            Cooling: Well I don't know what you like but here's a link to newegg.com The case above comes with fans from what I saw, but you can always get a new CPU cooler if it's running to hot.

            This rig will run you $1255, giving you $245 left over, from the $1500 budget.  If you wanted to, you could probably add water cooling with the extra money, although it probably isn't really needed with the rig above.

            Hope this helps, and I apologize for arguing with Tracker on your topic, but somebody had to do it.

            Sorry if I missed anything just yell at me, it's late.