Author Topic: Will not boot. (Read 8591 times)

sierobin · « **on:** September 25, 2009, 12:37:32 AM »

I have a computer that will not boot. Simply the hard drive will not boot up. The thing that is weird with the situation is that the only way the hard drive is even recognized is if it's not set on master by the jumper. I used Knoppix to see if the HD actually had an OS on it and Windows XP with all it's files are still on the drive.

I can access the data on the drive by Knoppix, but it will not actually boot to windows. I tried setting the jumper to Cable Select but I just get stuck on a blank screen with a blinking underscore. I honestly don't think it's the hard drive as I tried 3 different hard drives in the computer without any actually going anywhere.

I can't seem to locate my XP cd to try and run recovery (don't think that'd do anything anyway), but the problem seems to be something wrong the IDE set up but I'm not sure. If the jumper is set to Master, I get an error saying it couldn't find the hard drive or no hard drive is present.

Could someone shed some light on my situation? I've been working on this for hours now with no actual progress.

patio · « **Reply #1 on:** September 25, 2009, 02:39:17 AM »

If the HDD is being recognised properly by the BIOS and it does not boot properly it's a Windows issue...not the drive.

sierobin · « **Reply #2 on:** September 25, 2009, 08:58:23 AM »

Ok but it's only recognized properly if the jumper is not set to Master. Even if it's set to slave with the master IDE end plugged in the drive is recognized.

Isn't that a little strange?

patio · « **Reply #3 on:** September 25, 2009, 09:20:49 AM »

What else is on this IDE cable ? ?

sierobin · « **Reply #4 on:** September 25, 2009, 09:21:38 AM »

Nothing, only the harddrive. That's what I don't understand lol.

patio · « **Reply #5 on:** September 25, 2009, 09:30:44 AM »

Try it with no jumper and hooked to the end connector...

Normal setup:

MB===========================Slave========Master.

sierobin · « **Reply #6 on:** September 25, 2009, 09:33:03 AM »

Yeah I've tried this without a jumper. The drive is recognized but will not start windows. If I load up Knoppix the drive is there and has everything still on it.

That's how I guess the only reason I came to the conclusion that it's an IDE problem but I've already switched out the IDE ribbon cable and I still get the same thing. Could it be something in the BIOS that is messing it up?

patio · « **Reply #7 on:** September 25, 2009, 09:42:35 AM »

Unlikely...
Boot to the XP CD and choose the first R option to load the recovery console...
At the prompt type fixboot and hit Enter.
Remove the CD and re-boot....
If no joy-joy repeat the above procedure but this time at the prompt type fixmbr and repeat the process...

sierobin · « **Reply #8 on:** September 25, 2009, 09:46:31 AM »

Ok doing so now in a few minutes I will let you know how things work out. ( I found my XP CD finally lol)

sierobin · « **Reply #9 on:** September 25, 2009, 10:05:57 AM »

Ok I did both with no go. When I did the fixmbr (Fix Master Boot Record) I got something saying, "This computer appears to have a non-standard or invalid master boot record."

Unless that's just the default message it sends out that's what it says lol.

patio · « **Reply #10 on:** September 25, 2009, 10:07:31 AM »

Yes.
That's a standard message...did you select "Y" and reboot ? ?

sierobin · « **Reply #11 on:** September 25, 2009, 10:10:26 AM »

Yes for both fixboot and fixmbr.. I tried booting after each with no go. Just the blinking underscore with a blank page.

Should I switch the jumper to Master? However the drive is no longer recognized when it's set to Master like I said lol.

dahlarbear · « **Reply #12 on:** September 25, 2009, 10:15:08 AM »

If it still won't boot after Patio's instructions, verify the hard drive has a primary partition set "active". Won't boot without an active system partition, but you'll be able to mount and view data from another operating system.

I believe status can be checked and/or changed using "Diskpart" command within Recovery Console.

The "Map" command maps drive letters to physical device names.

I would also guess your Knoppix system would have a partition editor that would allow you to inspect the disk partition structure (GParted, Gpart?).

sierobin · « **Reply #13 on:** September 25, 2009, 10:21:48 AM »

There is a partition on C: (obviously or else I couldn't get into it with recovery).

Uhmn I'm kind of unsure what you're asking me here lol. Diskpart just shows the partitions on the disk which can be deleted or made into unpartitioned space.

As for Map I wouldn't need to use I guess since the partition is already set to C: right?

dahlarbear · « **Reply #14 on:** September 25, 2009, 10:32:34 AM »

If diskpart can be used to delete and create partitions I assumed you should be able to specify primary partitions and set active if desired. Been awhile since I've looked at it. If you enter "diskpart" without parameters it enters the program. Not sure what options available at that point or how you exit program (quit, exit, Ctrl-C?). But if you tried three other hard drives without success (no reason to believe primary partition isn't set active).

What IDE port (0 or 1) are you plugging the cable into?

sierobin · « **Reply #15 on:** September 25, 2009, 10:36:58 AM »

In diskpart it's just like you'd install a new copy of windows onto a drive. You can just choose what partition there is nothing else. Can't set active or anything of that sort.

As for the IDE port, how would one tell which port they're plugged into? I've never heard the term I'm sorry to be a newb, I'm currently a CST student so I don't know all the terminology yet.

sierobin · « **Reply #16 on:** September 25, 2009, 10:38:30 AM »

Sorry for the double post I just ran a CHKDSK and I got "CHKDSK found one or more errors on the volume." Could this mean anything at all?

dahlarbear · « **Reply #17 on:** September 25, 2009, 11:07:20 AM »

1. IDE Channel/Port. You look very carefully at the motherboard for annotation of IDE 0, IDE 1 where the IDE cables attach to the motherboard.

2. Is this an older computer trying to boot a very large capacity hard drive?

3. Any SATA ports on this motherboard or just the two IDE ports?

4. Is there just one partition on the hard drive?

5. Backup Data. If the data is important to you, back it up before trying to recover the hard drive.

6. Chkdsk Errors. Yes, you'd want to fix them. If you run "chkdsk" to fix/repair errors you cannot stop or abort it without risking filesystem corruption. You must let it run to completion and if it finds bad sectors could take hours to repair.

When you have time to let it finish, run "chkdsk /p /r".

7. Map command is nondestructive. It just lists the drive letter assignments by Recovery Console operating system. Give it a whirl to see how the drive letters were assigned.

sierobin · « **Reply #18 on:** September 25, 2009, 11:18:53 AM »

1. I thought that's what you meant, I tried switching the IDE cables between ports which were both unsuccessful.

2. No this is just a 40GB hard drive and yes it's a relatively old computer.

3. No SATA ports just the two IDE ports.

4. Yes just one partition except there is unpartitioned space (8MB).

5. This is a siblings computer, the information on the disk isn't of much importance.. just some music and third party applications.

6. Running it now, we'll see what happens :]

7. I tried the Map command, it just lists the HardDrive as C: and the other letters for the two CD-Rom/DVD-Drive and the Floppy for the other.

Thank you both for replying to my thread as well I really appreciate your time.

If I installed a new copy of windows, do you think this would rid of the problem? I don't want to go through that pain to have it not work.

dahlarbear · « **Reply #19 on:** September 25, 2009, 11:51:19 AM »

Quote from: sierobin on September 25, 2009, 11:18:53 AM

If I installed a new copy of windows, do you think this would rid of the problem? I don't want to go through that pain to have it not work.

Hmmm... Was the Windows XP operating system on this hard drive installed by this computer. By design Windows XP is meant to be installed by the computer system it is to run on. The installation is dependent upon the hardware environment. There are six different versions of the HAL and two different versions of the kernel not to mention numerous registry entries it creates that are hardware dependent.

Meaning you can't expect to move a hard drive containing Windows XP to another computer and have it boot up. I'm not saying it's impossible; just that it's not worth your time trying.

You might be able to do a "repair" install, but I've never tried it for the above situation.

I don't know if a reinstall would fix the problem, because I can't explain the weirdness of the IDE device "jumpers". Is the hard drive on the IDE cable by itself (single). Some drives (Western Digital) have three jumper settings (Master, Slave, Single). And one of those settings might be represented by no jumper.

What operating systems were on the three hard drives you tested and were any built on this system?

sierobin · « **Reply #20 on:** September 25, 2009, 12:20:12 PM »

Ah this might actually be it. When Windows XP was installed it was on a completely different computer. So all the hardware in this computer is completely different.

The CHKDSK is stuck at 52% by the way.

The IDE cable is only plugged into the hard drive so yes you can say it's "Single." I do not think there is a option for this, the only three that I see there are 2CS (Cable Select), SL (Slave) and MA (Master). I tried taking the jumper out completely but that still does nothing. Perhaps I should try a repair install but if I'm going that route I might as well just reinstall windows entirely.

The other 3 hard drives were not made on this system so that's probably the reason for this as well. In the past I've never had this issue that's why it wasn't a concern to me, but what you're saying makes total sense to me. So do you think my next step should just be reinstalling Windows completely?

patio · « **Reply #21 on:** September 25, 2009, 12:36:12 PM »

Repair Install of XP

I suggest reading it thru first and printing out a reference copy...
Remember to collect all the neccessary drivers as well before starting...

sierobin · « **Reply #22 on:** September 25, 2009, 12:38:16 PM »

Well I opted to try a fresh install.. it's actually installing onto the disk and everything seems to be going just fine.

Like I said nothing was important on the disk at all and I have all the necessary drivers saved on my pen drive already, so installing everything won't be much of a hassle to deal with.

If this goes well I guess I have the solution lol.

sierobin · « **Reply #23 on:** September 25, 2009, 12:58:14 PM »

It worked everything is installed and working, the drive is fine and everything.

Thank you all for the replies and for the learning opportunity :]

sierobin · « **Reply #24 on:** September 25, 2009, 01:13:25 PM »

Edit: It's still not working, the floppy drive is saying there is no boot diskette in the drive. I unplugged the floppy restart the computer and the XP logo came up and it appeared there was a kernel dump (Blue screen basically). Now it's at the blank screen with a blinking underscore.

Now the drive is just unpartitioned completely after a FRESH install of windows. Apparently not? lol

dahlarbear · « **Reply #25 on:** September 25, 2009, 01:18:14 PM »

I would have done the "repair" install, because I need to gain more knowledge about what works and what doesn't.

I'd feel safer with the "clean" install, however, I'd be assured there wasn't extra junk on the system (especially in the registry?).

If the chkdsk stuck at 52%, I'd assume it found some damage (file system corruption or bad sectors), and was still working to recover/move the data. My experience with this is limited, but I did have a chkdsk stall on me (for about twenty minutes) before it recovered and continued on. In that case it discovered and attempted to deal with a large number of "bad" sectors on the disk. So I have some reservations about the disk you may be using.

I also wonder if boot hard drive needs to be cabled to IDE port 0 (IDE primary channel) of motherboard. I'm not sure that BIOS will search the secondary IDE channel (IDE port 1) for the drive. Though many CD-ROMs (boot device?) attach to the secondary IDE cable, so maybe I'm wrong. It's so hard to run all of these questions down.

Please let us know how it goes... What worked and what didn't... Thanks.
--dahlarbear

Computer_Commando · « **Reply #26 on:** September 25, 2009, 01:26:53 PM »

Is the Windows CD you are using from an HP, Compaq, Dell or any other branded computer?

sierobin · « **Reply #27 on:** September 25, 2009, 01:27:52 PM »

Quote from: Computer_Commando on September 25, 2009, 01:26:53 PM

Is the Windows CD you are using from an HP, Compaq, Dell or any other branded computer?

No

sierobin · « **Reply #28 on:** September 25, 2009, 01:50:26 PM »

Ok so I have the floppy unplugged and did a new fresh install. I've restarted and shut down the system completely.

Everything seems to be working just fine, I'm actually posting from the computer as I'm typing this.

Anyhow, thank you all for your help.

Computer_Commando · « **Reply #29 on:** September 25, 2009, 01:59:05 PM »

This has happened to me before. Bad FDD will cause all kinds of Windows errors, even with no disk inserted. Any bad hardware will cause Windows installations problems.

dahlarbear · « **Reply #30 on:** September 25, 2009, 02:00:27 PM »

0. Dang! You're way too fast for me. You must be every employer's dream. What was the original reason this computer wasn't being used?

1. Floppy Drive.
a. Where is the floppy drive in the Boot Order (First, Second, Third, Fourth)?
b. Was there a non-boot floppy in the drive?
c. If you've disconnected the floppy drive, on general principle, I'd disable it in the BIOS.

2. Blue Screen of Death (BSOD). If the screen flashes by too fast to read, you can request operating system not to restart so it stays on BSOD. Not sure if that's the case here, but it's worth a try.

From the Windows Advanced Options Menu select the "Disable automatic restart on system failure".

If you can read the BSOD, post the "exact" Stop Code string (with its four parameters) and any error message and/or module name it might identify.

3. Windows Advanced Options Menu. Use the F8 function key during system startup to access the menu. Tap the F8 key once or twice per second as you startup the computer (or immediately after POST completes and screen flashes black prior to displaying Windows XP logo with its processing bar display).

When the menu comes up, use the up/down arrow keys to select the line item you want.

4. Memory Diagnostics. Test the memory. http://www.memtest86.com/ provides "free" diagnostic software that runs from either a bootable floppy or CD. Use the "Free Download" link from left side navigation menu. Run several complete passes.

5. Hard Drive Diagnostics. Most drive manufacturers provide free diagnostic software that runs from bootable floppy or CD. Links may be found here.

sierobin · « **Reply #31 on:** September 25, 2009, 03:35:36 PM »

Haha thank you dahl. Unfortunately I'm not hired doing any IT work but I wish I was I go to school for it. If you can find me job I'd happily go with it, I love this stuff.

Lol jk.. anyway I am at work at the moment so when I get home I will perform what you ask.

sierobin · « **Reply #32 on:** September 26, 2009, 01:54:01 PM »

K, lol.

1. I had already disabled the floppy after the disaster it caused, so it no longer exists.

2. The BSOD only appeared once more which I automatically turned the PC off. When I restart the PC once again it said I had no hard drive. Here's the weird part, I changed the jumper pin to Master again and it magically worked. Ever since I did that I have no BSODs and it's been working flawlessly (I left the PC on for more than 24 hours just to see if it would happen again.)

3. Yes this feature with the computer is the Tab key, weird yeah? Anyway, it seems to be just fine.

4. I've tested the memory, no errors came up, so I'm assuming it's just fine.

5. I'll run a full CHKDSK one day, yet it could cause the OS from actually booting lol.

Anyhow, everything seems to be working just great. There was a problem that the OS did not install as an entire partition and only as 8MB. Since windows is amazing I couldn't use the regular Disk Management to combine the rest of the disk to the Primary Partition. Luckily I have Norton Partition Magic and I just combined the unpartitioned space to my Primary Partition and everything is great.

I'll report back in a week or so if any problems arise or if I ran the CHKDSK. Thank you again

dahlarbear · « **Reply #33 on:** September 27, 2009, 07:42:54 AM »

1. Partition Size. Did you mean "8 MB" or "8 GB"? The BIOS of older computers limited the size of hard drive (partition) they could access. One limit was about 8 GB. The next was at 137 GB.

Quote from: sierobin on September 26, 2009, 01:54:01 PM

There was a problem that the OS did not install as an entire partition and only as 8MB. Since windows is amazing I couldn't use the regular Disk Management to combine the rest of the disk to the Primary Partition. Luckily I have Norton Partition Magic and I just combined the unpartitioned space to my Primary Partition and everything is great.

2. Ntdetect.chk. NTLDR runs ntdetect.com, which gathers information about the computer's hardware. (If ntdetect hangs during hardware detection there is a debug version called ntdetect.chk which can be found on Microsoft support.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTLDR
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ntdetect.com

sierobin · « **Reply #34 on:** September 27, 2009, 07:50:49 AM »

1. I meant 8GB sorry for the confusion lol.

2. Hmmn, I'll check that out.. probably could have helped me out in many ways haha.

dahlarbear · « **Reply #35 on:** September 27, 2009, 09:05:10 AM »

1. BIOS Update. If you've encountered an 8 GB disk partition limit, there's probably a BIOS update available for that computer. If brand name computer, check their website, otherwise website of motherboard manufacturer. Check the release notes on each BIOS update (to see what changes/fixes it supports); or just go with the lastest one that supports your computer and operating system.

Flashing the BIOS isn't something I like to do. If you screw up, you may not be able to access the computer.

2. Ntdetect.chk. It's difficult to find much information on this. Basically you replace "ntdetect.com" with "ntdetect.chk" in the boot process and observe the debug hardware enumeration information it displays on screen during system startup. Replacement is done by renaming "ntdetect.chk" to "ntdetect.com" (after saving off ntdetect.com to another name; e.g. "ntdetect.std").

You make the file changes (ntdetect.com) on the boot device you wish to use for troubleshooting. This could be the hard drive, floppy drive, CD-ROM drive, or USB drive. Doesn't matter as long as the boot device has the files necessary to boot the operating system (normally this is just ntldr, ntdetect.com, and boot.ini).

See How Windows Starts Up (Part the second).

sierobin · « **Reply #36 on:** September 27, 2009, 05:55:32 PM »

1. I'll look for a BIOS update, since that'd be something I'd want to update even without a problem persisting. As of right now the computer is great with no problems and no BSODs.

2. So then you don't actually have to download the file, you simply just rename it?

Computer_Commando · « **Reply #37 on:** September 27, 2009, 06:05:56 PM »

Quote from: sierobin on September 27, 2009, 05:55:32 PM

1. I'll look for a BIOS update, since that'd be something I'd want to update even without a problem persisting. As of right now the computer is great with no problems and no BSODs.

2. So then you don't actually have to download the file, you simply just rename it?

1. Good. Problem solved!
2. Do nothing or you will be right back here again when it won't boot.

sierobin · « **Reply #38 on:** September 27, 2009, 06:08:39 PM »

Quote from: Computer_Commando on September 27, 2009, 06:05:56 PM

1. Good. Problem solved!
2. Do nothing or you will be right back here again when it won't boot.

Haha, :]

dahlarbear · « **Reply #39 on:** September 27, 2009, 10:11:20 PM »

Quote from: sierobin on September 27, 2009, 05:55:32 PM

2. So then you don't actually have to download the file, you simply just rename it?

"Ntdetect.chk" is included within the Windows XP Support Tools package which you would install onto your system. You can either download it from Windows XP Service Pack 2 Support Tools or access the "\Support\Tools" folder on your Windows XP CD.

You need to replace the regular "ntdetect.com" with the debug version "ntdetect.chk" in the startup boot sequence. Since "ntldr" is looking for "ntdetect.com" you must either copy or rename debug version to "ntdetect.com".

If you don't want to modify the "working" system, you can boot the operating system off the hard drive from another device. Create a bootable floppy, CD, or USB drive with the necessary files (ntldr, ntdetect.com, and boot.ini) in the root directory. Boot from that device to troubleshoot.

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Author Topic: Will not boot. (Read 8591 times)

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