Easiest Language to Learn?

[Redcaa]

What is the most powerful and easy programming language to learn? I have a slight idea of HTML.

[macdad-]

Just for refrence, HTML isnt a true programming language, its more or less a 'Foundation' for webpages that use Java, VBScript, etc.

The easiest would be BASIC, thats my opinion and its usually what begginers start out with anyways.

Theres several free BASIC compilers out there, for instance Just BASIC is one:
http://www.justbasic.com/

Or you can go with Microsofts VB.NET(Visual Basic .NET) its BASIC with a more organized feel(and yes its free: http://www.microsoft.com/express/vb/Default.aspx), and for the sake that BC doesn't get me, VB6 is another alternative(Its the older version of Visual Basic) but you have to buy it.

NOTE: If you want to get in depth with Game Programming/Graphical programs then you want to go with compilers like VB.NET

[gh0std0g74]

The easiest would be BASIC, thats my opinion and its usually what begginers start out with anyways.

it can be easy , but not "powerful".
@OP, you can try Python. Its both easy and "powerful". By "powerful", i mean it comes with libraries and modules you can use with ease to do your tasks.

[BC_Programmer]

If you want to get in depth with Game Programming/Graphical programs then you want to go with compilers like VB.NET C/C++

har.

HTML is a markup language,  enough said.

I think the OP should clarify exactly what they mean by "powerful"...

[kpac]

I think the OP should clarify exactly what they mean by "powerful"...

...and what they want to do.

PHP, Perl, ASP, Coldfusion, etc. are all languages used in Web design.

[DaveLembke]

Like everyone else stepping in here. Depends on what you are trying to accomplish as far as powerful, as for some languages are better geared with built in functions to handle specific needs.

Also you would have to make a choice of GUI or Console Programming type languages. Such as do you want something with a neat user interface or something that crunches or controls data.

I agree that Basic is the easiest to learn and I am currently teaching a friend on Basic. He wants to make neat Windows Apps and I said well thats cool, but you cant just jump into that programming without a foundation of which to build from and that foundation is understanding all pieces of programming ( input, arrays, variable types, loops, IF-Then-Else statements, data types "String, Integer, Double, Float, etc", printing to display text, saving information to files, Reading information from files ( if supported by the language ), sound, color, graphics, system calls, and on and on)

I would start with Basic to understand how the pieces of the puzzle of programming work, then dive into something more complicated after creating a programming knowledge foundation to build from and relate to other languages.

[macdad-]

har.

HTML is a markup language,  enough said.

I think the OP should clarify exactly what they mean by "powerful"...

Hey, atleast I didn't trash VB6 

[BatchFileCommand]

Python, Python Python Python. Python is powerful, fast, elegant, and is easy to read. All the things a programmer craves. Oh yes, and it's dynamically and strongly typed. Don't comment on those if you don't know what they mean.  Python is also very efficient. If you want some good python tutorials go to 'thenewboston' channel and check out his awesome tutorials. But lets make the list.

C - Powerful/ Easy /nice readability / efficient / flexible / OOP
Basic - Powerful/ Easy / nice readability / efficient / flexible / OOP
VB6 - Powerful / Easy / nice readability / efficient / flexible / OOP
Python - Powerful / Easy / Nice Readability / Efficient / Flexible / OOP

Python FTW!!!

italicized is good.
bold is best.
Nothing is normal.
strike is bad

[computeruler]

Im learning c++ and so far it doesnt seem to be too hard.  I guess visual basic is pretty easy

[BC_Programmer]

You can't have dynamic and strong typing at the same time. Unless of course your actually referring to the fact that Python supports expando objects by implementing IDispatchEx.

"readability" isn't even a concern- for most languages it depends on how much you know it, and more precisely how it's written.

Exception being regular expressions... and since they dominate perl, it can be difficult to make extremely readable perl code, unless you dump using regular expressions to begin with... but that is it's most powerful feature.


Regarding Object orientation- Python is not Object oriented. It's code doesn't reside in Classes. You write a Python code file- but it's not a class- and if it is, how do you define such things as inheritance, implemented interfaces and aggregate classes? These are all a requirement of Object orientation, and I see none of them in Python.

Visual Basic 6 only lacks inheritance- this is because it's based on the Component Object Model (COM)... (this oddly enough allows it to interface even with .NET classes... which is a bit disorienting, to be honest.).

saying VB6 isn't efficient and saying Python is is a bit stupid and obviously not backed up with anything substantial. Python is a interpreted language. VB6 can be compiled to Native code. (although P-code is only about 5% slower on average). Python by design (same with VBScript, Javascript, Perl, and any number of languages) is limited by it's interpreter.


a small bit of Python:

Code: [Select]

def translate(str,dict):
words = string.split(string.lower(str))
keys = dict.keys();
for i in range(0,len(words)):
if words[i] in keys:
words[i] = dict[words[i]]
return string.join(words)


equivalent VB6:

Code: [Select]

Public Function Translate(ByVal Str As String, Dict As Scripting.Dictionary) As String
    Dim words() As String, i As Long
    words = Split(Str, " ")
    For i = 0 To UBound(words)
     
       
        If Dict.Exists(words(i)) Then
            words(i) = Dict(words(i))
        End If

    Next i
    Translate = Join(words, " ")

End Function


Problems with Python: whitespace is important. this is probably one of the stupidest and most restricting ideas ever conceived of for a language, but it does have the advantage of forcing what should be done anyway. Also neat is what appears to be the usage of a loop construct that is "set" so to speak:

Code: [Select]

For <variable> = <start> to <finish> step <step>

it takes the approach of:

Code: [Select]

for <variable> in <array>

This is very cool. So cool in fact that VB has it.(heh)

Code: [Select]

For Each <variable> in <array>
works just fine. The added advantage is that for basic iterating through an array, you don't need to create an array with the "range" function, or any other function, for that matter.

Note that in this specific instance, the VB6 version will have significantly reduced memory usage, since the dictionary is a object, just like in the python version. In this case, however, we can see that from the header, since it is a strongly-typed early-bound reference to a Dictionary object. Calling this routine with, say, an array or a reference to a control, or a array, you'll get a type mismatch error. With python, well, who knows. your claims about strong typing seem to be over-emphasized, I see no evidence of any types whatsoever, and the lack of types is the single-biggest cause of bugs in programming languages that support it. (this includes VB, which allows loose typing with the use of the Variant type introduced in VB2)

Flexiblility:

Visual Basic allows for the use of the "implements" keyword in the declarations section of a form or class module. this will alow that object to be used polymorphically as an instance of that interface. For example, I have used it with my Expression Parser to allow the creation of "Plugin" objects that can handle operators, functions, and even add new previously undefined behaviour, like the on-the-fly interpretation of Environment variables. (this is in fact used for the Core as well). I imagine this type of behaviour must also be supported by python?

The only addition Python can possibly add to the Object abilities of VB6 is Implementation inheritance (akin to the "inherits" keyword in VB.NET). However, VB6 can do Implementation inheritance, via the use of it's current  ability to inherit Interfaces combined with the use of an aggregate class of the inherited type. For example:


cSuperclass.cls:

Code: [Select]

Option Explicit

Public Function Add(Numbers() as Variant) as Variant
    Dim Total as Variant
    Dim CurrVal as Variant
    For Each CurrVal in Numbers
        Total = Total + currVal
    Next
    Add = Total
End Function

subclass.cls, which Inherits the implementation of superclass.cls:

Code: [Select]

Option Explicit
Implements cSuperClass
Private mvarSuper as superclass

Private Sub Class_Initialize()
    set mvarSuper = New cSuperClass
End Sub

Private Function cSuperClass_Add(Numbers() as Variant) as Variant
    cSuperClass_Add = mvarSuper.Add(Numbers)
End Sub
Public Function Add(Numbers() as Variant) as Variant

    Add = mvarSuper.Add(copy)
End Function

it is, however, kind of messy. Besides, the entire concept of inheriting an entire implementation is flawed, since it requires knowledge about that implementation- (is it safe to override method "X"?). It would have been possible for the fluff used in the VB above to be made "behind the scenes" so to speak, and create an "inherits" keyword. However cooler heads prevailed.

Implementation Inheritance is purely part of the domain of weak object heirarchies, and is just as easily created using Interfaces and specific Pre and Post conditions. the main problem with Implementation Inheritance is it is used simply because it is there. I have seen entire java applets written with three classes, all different versions of the applet, each version extending from the previous. This type of use of the feature is stupid. the functionality could have been added right into the "version one" class. the main use of Implementation inheritance is to allow default behaviour for any method that the implementor does not wish to change. But I proclaim that the problem is the changing of the implementation at all- as I said before, without knowing how it works, how can one know it is safe to change?


and now I'm rambling about Object oriented design principles. Oh well.

Anyway, to summarize, your evaluation is biassed and therefore wrong. Python is a great language but is no better overall then most others.

[macdad-]

No response from Redcaa.

[gh0std0g74]

"readability" isn't even a concern- for most languages it depends on how much you know it, and more precisely how it's written.

if the language can provide a programmer with easy to read and use syntax, its a bonus.

Regarding Object orientation- Python is not Object oriented. It's code doesn't reside in Classes. You write a Python code file- but it's not a class- and if it is, how do you define such things as inheritance, implemented interfaces and aggregate classes? These are all a requirement of Object orientation, and I see none of them in Python.

Python is an OO language. You can define your own classes when programming with it. For normal usage, one can just use what's already available (ie classes) for example, there is string class called "str" and its methods. If you have Python, type help(str) on the interpreter and you will see that its a class(and its methods).

a small bit of Python:

Code: [Select]

def translate(str,dict):
words = string.split(string.lower(str))
keys = dict.keys();
for i in range(0,len(words)):
if words[i] in keys:
words[i] = dict[words[i]]
return string.join(words)


equivalent VB6:

Code: [Select]

Public Function Translate(ByVal Str As String, Dict As Scripting.Dictionary) As String
    Dim words() As String, i As Long
    words = Split(Str, " ")
    For i = 0 To UBound(words)
     
       
        If Dict.Exists(words(i)) Then
            words(i) = Dict(words(i))
        End If

    Next i
    Translate = Join(words, " ")

End Function


what does the above  2 pieces of code do? care to explain? i only see that ultimately, the results are just changing any uppercase letters to lower.

Anyway, have you played with Python's dictionary objects? For example, how easy is it to sort dictionary items by keys or values in VB ?(or vbscript?) ... with Python's dictionary objects and sorting methods, its very easy. The last time i play with vb6, (or even vbscript), sorting dictionary objects (or even sorting ordinary variables) are a pain.

Problems with Python: whitespace is important. this is probably one of the stupidest

that is not a problem at all. it is also not right to judge something and say its "stupid" just because you don't like it. If it is, that means you are opposing the creator and the many people who use it. Are you also saying that those behind Google's application engine are stupid?

With python, well, who knows. your claims about strong typing seem to be over-emphasized, I see no evidence of any types whatsoever, and the lack of types is the single-biggest cause of bugs in programming languages that support it. (this includes VB, which allows loose typing with the use of the Variant type introduced in VB2)

see here.


All all these are said, you can say VB can do this and that, I can say Python does it better blah blah, but its really no point discussing this further, since OP provides no clue as to what he wants in a programming language in detail.

[BC_Programmer]

what does the above  2 pieces of code do? care to explain? i only see that ultimately, the results are just changing any uppercase letters to lower.

Well, from what I can tell, it takes a set of keys, and returns a set of values. (I forgot to transfer the lcase over, but  I suppose switching comparemodes would work.


Really I Was pointing out that BatchFileCommand, as usual, is incorrect. He's always blabbering on and on about whatever technology currently has his fancy, next week it's probably be LOLCode. I was being purposely biassed in an attempt to show how stupid it is to do that

[Geek-9pm]

...most powerful and easy programming language...

The i386 Assembly is by for the mist powerful. And rather easy to learn.  You learn by example and reading the documentation.

[BatchFileCommand]

BC_Programmer, you have obviously never used Python. For indentation, when using the IDLE or built in IDE it automatically indents when necessary. So you don't need to worry about indentation. I'm sorry, it's dynamically typed I was thinking of something else. Not all Python programs have to be OO, which is better then everything being OO. Second of all, you put plenty of spaces in the VB6 code, but none in the Python code, making the Python code not look as nice. Third of all, BC_Programmer, stop acting like a smart-aleck:

whatever technology currently has his fancy, next week it's probably be LOLCode.

Seriously, talk about ignorance:

Really I Was pointing out that BatchFileCommand, as usual, is incorrect.

You act like the post above you never existed.
You were worse then I thought.

Not only that, but the Python and VB6 code don't even work the same.
With the split statement you add a lower function to Python and make it look
more complicated. Like before, you don't add any spaces, it's all clumped together.
Please BC, stop acting like an idiot.

[gh0std0g74]

Well, from what I can tell, it takes a set of keys, and returns a set of values. (I forgot to transfer the lcase over, but  I suppose switching comparemodes would work.

where did you get this Python code. I can tell you, it does nothing. If its going to translate , say letter "A" to "1", "B" to "2", then the string method str.translate() and str.maketrans() can be used.
Also, the code is outdated. Nowadays, string.split(), string.lower() is not needed. You can simply say

Code: [Select]

>>> "ABC".lower()
>>> var="myString"
>>> var.lower()
>>> var="mystring"
>>> var.split()
['mystring']


notice the above split() on "var" , it produces a list of one item because you are splitting on nothing. If you want to get individual characters into arrays,

Code: [Select]

>>> var="mystring"
>>> list(var)
['m', 'y', 's', 't', 'r', 'i', 'n', 'g']
Therefore, in your Python sample code, that split() is not doing anything useful.
if you want to go over the individual characters in a string,

Code: [Select]

>>> for i in var:
...  print i
...
m
y
s
t
r
i
n
g

there is no need to use range(0,len(words)).
Also, the variables string, str, dict are all reserved words.

[BatchFileCommand]

My answer stands solid until proven otherwise, WITH VALID CODE!

[BC_Programmer]

My answer stands solid until proven otherwise, WITH VALID CODE!

Right until proven wrong is the approach often taken by trolls.

[Helpmeh]

Right until proven wrong is the approach often taken by trolls.

So the justice system used by Canada and US is used by trolls?

[BC_Programmer]

So the justice system used by Canada and US is used by trolls?

*censored*?

that's the opposite! the crown is assumed WRONG about the criminals guilt until they are able to prove it.

[Helpmeh]

*censored*?

that's the opposite! the crown is assumed WRONG about the criminals guilt until they are able to prove it.

They assume defence is right (not guilty unless they confess) until proven wrong.

[BatchFileCommand]

Right until proven wrong is the approach often taken by trolls.

The difference being that Trolls have been proven wrong.

[BC_Programmer]

The difference being that Trolls have been proven wrong.

Wrong about what?

your expression above is biassed, even ghostdog, I'm sure, can agree with that.

Python is a great language (I'm sure, I would take some getting used to the use of whitespace as part of the syntax, being used to C/C++/C# where it's ignored, and VB where... well actually I suppose the use of CRLF to separate statements can be considered the use of whitespace too, come to think of it.) Readability is subjective, with any language.

Speed- Python, being an interpreted language, will be slower then equivalent compiled code. On the other hand- the choice of algorithm is going to be the deciding factor in  any application of either compiled or interpreted language. As an example, you simply cannot optimize a bubble-sort in any compiled language to be faster then a quicksort- or really, any other sort algorithm, implemented in an interpreted language.

Now, that being said; there are some critical differences between what Python is aimed at and the other languages you named are for.

Each of the languages you named can create Windows Applications, C, BASIC (via freeBASIC or darkBASIC) and VB6 (which takes hacking to create a command-line program).

Basically- Python is a scripting language- a Scripting language is intended for a completely different set of problems then a compiled language, mostly for the creation of helpful little utilities that are used at the command-line. Because of this (and correct me if I'm wrong) but Python- and most scripting languages - cannot be used to create a windows application, unlike the other languages you named.

Also, regarding OOP once again... no one answered my question... is  each separate file in Python usable as a class? Do they posess member variables? (I see that the built-in stuff uses Objects with static methods, like "string.<method>" but is it possible to create your own objects?



EDIT: Actually, I just remembered IronPython, which is a .NET implementation of Python... I imagine THAT can create windows applications


Also, in answer to the query of where I got the code, I just did a google for python samples.

ahh, here it is:

http://www.strout.net/python/ai/therapist.py

Something that might explain the inconsistencies with today's python:"last revised: 3/17/97", perhaps split did something different. I haven't a god *censored* clue. It's not my code, so I assumed it was there for a reason.



To clarify what  that particular procedure did. you pass in a delimited string of keys and a dictionary, and you get a delimited string of the values in those keys. It seemed nice and short and easily translated to VB- or any language, for that matter.

Wow, I missed an entire post here, too...

BC_Programmer, you have obviously never used Python. For indentation, when using the IDLE or built in IDE it automatically indents when necessary. So you don't need to worry about indentation.

That wasn't my point. my point was you cannot "organize" it the way you like- for example, with C you could put an entire IF statement on one line, if it was a line or two.

I'm sorry, it's dynamically typed I was thinking of something else.

Well, as ghostdog pointed out, it's like the use of Variant's in Visual Basic before version 4 (that is, "2"+2 fires off a type mismatch in VB2- you would need to either val() the "2" or CStr/Str the 2. (IIRC, I do know that VB4 added "evil type coercion")... It was definitely better before they decided to add the automatic crap.

Not all Python programs have to be OO, which is better then everything being OO.

not all VB6 programs have to be Object Oriented either. In fact even .NET programs don't strictly require Object Orientation(of them, C# does though... VB.NET does not) . Java strictly requires it.

Second of all, you put plenty of spaces in the VB6 code, but none in the Python code, making the Python code not look as nice.

I only copy-pasted the Python code. The reason the VB6 code is indented as it is is because I wrote it. I didn't want to mess up the python code, which now turns out to be over 9 years old anyway (again, might explain the split?).

Third of all, BC_Programmer, stop acting like a smart-aleck:

"smart alec"   

Not only that, but the Python and VB6 code don't even work the same.
With the split statement you add a lower function to Python and make it look
more complicated. Like before, you don't add any spaces, it's all clumped together.

Yes, if the split function actually does split the string into it's respective characters, then it does work differently. I went with the assumption that the split() function defaulted to a space, or something along those lines. Otherwise- well, it just doesn't do a whole lot (did the Split() function perhaps work differently in 97?) Already covered the spaced issue, I don't have python installed and therefore would be unable to test and knowing that whitespace is part of the syntax I left it as-is.

Please BC, stop acting like an idiot.

your the one comparing apples to oranges. Not me. Well, I was, but it was purely satirical.

Anyway, have you played with Python's dictionary objects? For example, how easy is it to sort dictionary items by keys or values in VB ?(or vbscript?) ... with Python's dictionary objects and sorting methods, its very easy. The last time i play with vb6, (or even vbscript), sorting dictionary objects (or even sorting ordinary variables) are a pain.

I barely ever use Dictionary's in any language. I use the VB6 Collection Extensively, but I don't use the Dictionary object since it requires the scripting Run-time (which is guaranteed from VBScript, but not guaranteed to be installed with VB6) I rarely have to sort the items I have in the collection- since they are objects, and in general the order I have them in doesn't matter much. I believe the main thing that turned me off of the dictionary was the requirement of passing in a Key, rather then being able to use an index as is possible with a collection. Not a huge deal but enough of a down-side to not add the reference to the scripting runtime.

For those times when I do need to sort, I just use a Class and interface I wrote- all I need to do is implement the comparing function that compares two items in the array. Haven't needed it much, come to think of it.

I'm going to install a few scripting languages(perl,python, (any others anybody can think of? (that is, ones that work with the Scripting Host)) so that I can create some sample Python and Perl Scripts to go alongside the VBScript and Javascript ones I have already. I thought I already installed the two but I guess it was my old machine.







[/quote]

[Helpmeh]

Third of all, BC_Programmer, stop acting like a smart-aleck:

Please BC, stop acting like an idiot.

If these were by the same poster, then I find this funny. Otherwise, disregard this post.

[gh0std0g74]

Each of the languages you named can create Windows Applications, C, BASIC (via freeBASIC or darkBASIC) and VB6 (which takes hacking to create a command-line program).

Basically- Python is a scripting language- a Scripting language is intended for a completely different set of problems then a compiled language, mostly for the creation of helpful little utilities that are used at the command-line. Because of this (and correct me if I'm wrong) but Python- and most scripting languages - cannot be used to create a windows application, unlike the other languages you named.

scripting language or compiled language makes no real big difference in what its aimed to do. Besides, it also depends on what you mean by Windows applications.You can most certainly program windows applications using Python and GUI modules like wxPython or Tkinter to name a few. They are the same as what VB6 does, except that in VB6, you can drag and drop your buttons and place it nicely on your forms...etc..
while in Python, say example if using plain old Tkinter, you have to code like this

Code: [Select]

Button(mybutton, text="Submit", command=mycommand_once_its_clicked)
If you are talking about doing low level system programming like drivers etc, then its a different story.

Also, regarding OOP once again... no one answered my question... is  each separate file in Python usable as a class?
Do they posess member variables? (I see that the built-in stuff uses Objects with static methods, like "string.<method>" but is it possible to create your own objects?

Python is a OO language, therefore you can be rest assured that it does what it does, as an OO language. If you are talking about creating your own classes and methods, sure,you can.  You can also write your own collection of functions, for example

Code: [Select]

def function1() :
  # function to do task1
  return value1
def function2() :
  # function to do task2
  return value2
Save it as a file, say myfunc.py.  then from your main script, call it using import

Code: [Select]

import myfunc
# main
# start
var = myfunc.function1() #call function1 from myfunc
print var


Also, in answer to the query of where I got the code, I just did a google for python samples.

ahh, here it is:

http://www.strout.net/python/ai/therapist.py

Something that might explain the inconsistencies with today's python:"last revised: 3/17/97", perhaps split did something different. I haven't a god <censored> clue. It's not my code, so I assumed it was there for a reason.

well, as you can see , its rather old code. Python has come a long way since then. regex is deprecated and re is used instead, along with a few others. anyway, to digress................

Yes, if the split function actually does split the string into it's respective characters, then it does work differently. I went with the assumption that the split() function defaulted to a space, or something along those lines. Otherwise- well, it just doesn't do a whole lot (did the Split() function perhaps work differently in 97?)

with split() in Python, you have to give it a delimiter.  if not, it will just not do anything. for example

Code: [Select]

>>> astring = "adbc"
>>> print astring.split()
['adbc']
>>> astring = "adbc,abcd"
>>> print astring.split()
['adbc,abcd']
>>> print astring.split(",")
['adbc', 'abcd']

like i said in my previous post, if one want to "split" a word into individual characters , use list. continuing from above

Code: [Select]

>>> list(astring)
['a', 'd', 'b', 'c', ',', 'a', 'b', 'c', 'd']


I barely ever use Dictionary's in any language. I use the VB6 Collection Extensively, but I don't use the Dictionary object since it requires the scripting Run-time (which is guaranteed from VBScript, but not guaranteed to be installed with VB6) I rarely have to sort the items I have in the collection- since they are objects, and in general the order I have them in doesn't matter much. I believe the main thing that turned me off of the dictionary was the requirement of passing in a Key, rather then being able to use an index as is possible with a collection. Not a huge deal but enough of a down-side to not add the reference to the scripting runtime.

well, putting yourself aside, there will be others who needs those capabilities, and VB(or vbscript) is still lacking things like a good sort function (correct me if i am wrong since i haven't touch VB6 since dinosaur times).

I'm going to install a few scripting languages(perl,python, (any others anybody can think of? (that is, ones that work with the Scripting Host)) so that I can create some sample Python and Perl Scripts to go alongside the VBScript and Javascript ones I have already. I thought I already installed the two but I guess it was my old machine.

Perl and Python are 2 of the most common and widely used ones...so i suggest you stick to either or both of them...I am not sure what you mean by "works with scripting host" , but i can tell you they both have modules to do WMI and a bunch of other win32 stuffs.

[Geek-9pm]

Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years
Researchers (Bloom (1985), Bryan & Harter (1899), Hayes (1989), Simmon & Chase (1973)) have shown it takes about ten years to develop expertise in any of a wide variety of areas, including chess playing, music composition, telegraph operation, painting, piano playing, swimming, tennis, and research in neuropsychology and topology. The key is deliberative practice: not just doing it again and again, but challenging yourself with a task that is just beyond your current ability, trying it, analyzing your performance while and after doing it, and correcting any mistakes. Then repeat. And repeat again. There appear to be no real shortcuts: even Mozart, who was a musical prodigy at age 4, took 13 more years before he began to produce world-class music. In another genre, the Beatles seemed to burst onto the scene with a string of #1 hits and an appearance on the Ed Sullivan show in 1964. But they had been playing small clubs in Liverpool and Hamburg since 1957, and while they had mass appeal early on, their first great critical success, Sgt. Peppers, was released in 1967.  ...

Peter Norvig
http://norvig.com/21-days.html

[BC_Programmer]

scripting language or compiled language makes no real big difference in what its aimed to do.

I have to disagree somewhat, while you CAN do any number of things, I wouldn't write a full-featured word processor in a scripting language any more then I'd fire up a C compiler to create a file size calculator(or something similar), or small simple GUI application.

Python is a OO language, therefore you can be rest assured that it does what it does, as an OO language. If you are talking about creating your own classes and methods, sure,you can.  You can also write your own collection of functions, for example

but... err- what you used as an example is equivalent to a Visual Basic module, or Static class methods. What I wondered, was how one creates instances of objects in Python.

well, putting yourself aside, there will be others who needs those capabilities, and VB(or vbscript) is still lacking things like a good sort function (correct me if i am wrong since i haven't touch VB6 since dinosaur times).

It doesn't come built-in, so I wrote a Module based iterative quicksort that simply compares with < and >, as well as (later) a class/interface based approach so I could sort different objects based on their properties and whatnot.

Perl and Python are 2 of the most common and widely used ones...so i suggest you stick to either or both of them...I am not sure what you mean by "works with scripting host" , but i can tell you they both have modules to do WMI and a bunch of other win32 stuffs.

What I meant regarding "works with scripting host" is that it will work with CScript or WScript. For example- ActiveState Perl and ActiveState Python both expose their functionality to the scripting host; some other languages and implementations of languages don't. Main reason is because I use the scripts in my program by using the "ScriptControl" which doubtlessly accesses scripts via the Windows Script Host.

[Helpmeh]

Peter Norvig
http://norvig.com/21-days.html

In 4 years I've made the geekiest librarian at my school impressed with me....only because they don't teach programming at the elementary level. 

[gh0std0g74]

I have to disagree somewhat, while you CAN do any number of things, I wouldn't write a full-featured word processor in a scripting language any more then I'd fire up a C compiler to create a file size calculator(or something similar), or small simple GUI application.

why not. see here.  considering the scale of those projects against a word processor, i don't see why a word processor cannot be done with Python.

but... err- what you used as an example is equivalent to a Visual Basic module, or Static class methods. What I wondered, was how one creates instances of objects in Python.

i don't quite get what you don't get. see here for intro to classes. Basically to instantiate objects, the dot operator is used, much like Java. if you don't quite find what you are looking for, you can ask in comp.lang.python. I personally has limited (just the basics) OO knowledge.

[Geek-9pm]

gh0std0g74
Learn to test your links.
Over 85% of coding is testing your code. 

[BatchFileCommand]

how one creates instances of objects in Python.

Code: [Select]

obj = SomeMethod()


[macdad-]

In the end, you can say all you want about each language but it just boils down to eventually Personal Choice and what your going to program.

[Geek-9pm]

eventually Personal Choice and what your going to program.

Right!

If you are not yet familiar with programming and you want a traditional approach, your best bet is Pascal. After that Java.

[gh0std0g74]

If you are not yet familiar with programming and you want a traditional approach, your best bet is Pascal. After that Java.

that's boils down to the so called "personal choice" as well... As a "personal choice", i won't even bother with Pascal or Java. Python is easy enough for the beginner to be used to learn programming.

[Geek-9pm]

asy enough for the beginner

How long does he want to be a beginner?

Pascal was written by an individual who spend more time teaching that any of use here. His idea was to make a language not powerfully and easy, but structured and explicit. Pascal is an ideal teaching language. Too many people learn how to code but can not solve a real problem or explain it to someone else.

Have you noticed many people come here with a bit of code and can not tell use what their objective is?

[gh0std0g74]

How long does he want to be a beginner?

what's your point? it doesn't matter right?

Pascal was written by an individual who spend more time teaching that any of use here. His idea was to make a language not powerfully and easy, but structured and explicit. Pascal is an ideal teaching language. Too many people learn how to code but can not solve a real problem or explain it to someone else.

So can the other languages. What's important is they must encompass and provide the necessary concepts in programming. What are the lessons in programming which can be learnt in Pascal that one cannot learn in other languages? show me a few examples.

Have you noticed many people come here with a bit of code and can not tell use what their objective is?

like who?

[BC_Programmer]

Geek-9pm...

what about Delphi? I've heard it's quite similar to pascal, but adds more modern principles, like, being able to store strings longer then 255 characters.

Pascal was a teaching language- but that's it- an academic exercise language, as you've stated. It's great and was used a lot for teaching programming, because it enforces a few things syntactically that would normally need to be enforced by the programmer, such as the structured sectioned off portions of code for declaration of variables, constants, interfaces, and finally the implementation.


Delphi... well I've never actually fired up my copy of Delphi very often. It is however the "next iteration" of Pascal- that is, it is very similar to Pascal, but adds better dealings with objects.

Java- Java is and has been used, and put on a pedestal, because of it's "superior" implementation of OOP. The main strengths being it's platform independence.

The last time I used Java, I created a COM component with J++; something I could use from Visual Basic, so I could use Visual Basic to "unit test" the component. Also, I found that the COM extensions added to the Microsoft JVM included the ability to instantiate any Java accessible object- for example, CreateObject("java.lang.String") would actually work.

Every once in a while I'll write a little C++ DLL for something. Being able to access DLL's from many other languages as well as leveraging COM and .NET components from a number of languages (any scripting language I've encountered can create ActiveX objects somehow, when run on a Windows machine), of course for obvious reasons Scripts can't usually access a DLL function directly (obvious reasons being that, they removed file access from the VBScript language for a reason). Some might say, "but... what about the FSO?" Ahh, yes, you can access files, open, save, etc with the FSO from VBScript, JScript, and other languages- but the component itself is not marked safe for scripting and therefore untrusted scripts (usually those implemented on a web-site) cannot use it. the problem though- is while almost every other language that is even usable on Win32 can interoperate (Scripting languages get this free with the Scripting Host, in fact), Java cannot, as far as I can tell. (my recent attempts to research this failed, though I may try again now that my PC can actually run NetBeans)



One more thing: something that I've found nearly indispensable to have for nearly any language- an IDE of some sort. Many languages "come with" one for free- that is- paid ones, such as Visual Studio; .NET etc. Scripting languages, by definition, don't come with one in the standard package but they all come with a free IDE, or one can be found (such as the aforementioned IDLE for python,NetBeans for Java, Microsoft Script Editor works for any WSH enabled language, too)- sometimes "better" IDE's can be found at a price, but the free ones are usually quite powerful.

So that brings us not to a choice of Language necessarily, but also a choice of IDE.

I originally thought that the old "turbo Pascal" was the last iteration of any strictly pascal IDE (that is, not Delphi) but a quick google reveals that Pascal has a free compiler as well as a free IDE (http://www.bloodshed.net/devpascal.html).

Visual Basic 6... well, It's IDE kind of sucks, and because of it's strict coupling there haven't yet been any replacements developed as of yet. Most of the "suckiness" comes simply because it's designed for windows 9x/NT4, so it doesn't support Luna/Aero (it can be forced to with a manifest, though, just like the EXEs it creates). If I was getting started with programming today, I probably wouldn't bother with VB6 at all, except perhaps as a history lesson.

.NET: each .NET language (including IronPython) has a great IDE with a lot of features. but the .NET environment suffers from one fatal flaw- it's slow. It takes over 4 seconds on my quad core to even show the splash screen, and another 6 after that. Additionally it suffers from constant "lag" in whatever you are doing, and it has personally caused me to lose my train of thought multiple times. Maybe this is because I don't use it often, so it isn't "registered" as something SuperFetch should retrieve, so comparitively it takes longer- I don't know.

More to the point, while the "express" versions of the .NET languages are free, you are not able to create commercial applications with them- you'd need to purchase the far more expensive paid versions of Visual Studio. Alternative IDEs do exist for .NET, namely SharpDevelop, which are possibly faster.

To be fair however, Java... or more precisely, NetBeans, suffers from similar slowness; with a similar amount of power. Again, this is probably due (personally) to it simply not being cached by my OS like my oft used programs.

Scripting languages almost ALL have at least one IDE to use with them; Python has IDLE (and probably more)m Perl has RegExBuddy (HAHAHA, just kidding, I should say something like Open Perl IDE (http://open-perl-ide.sourceforge.net/). the best thing? if you don't like the IDE, you can choose another, and if you don't like to use an IDE at all, you can always just use notepad and the command line interpreter. Also, Notepad++ has the ability to syntax colour and fold code blocks for a LOT of programming languages, and even allows the addition of a command-line to run each script type. The choices of how to develop with a script language are endless. AND- because, unlike, say, C/C++, you don't have to decide on one of a number of incompatible compilers, and rather are using the same, completely interpreter regardless of the IDE you choose, code you develop in one IDE will work with another (heh, try that with say, Borland C and Microsoft C)

Also: almost every scripting language can easily be used- on the server-side to generate page responses, used either through the scripting host on IIS or via easily obtained plugins for apache.

[BatchFileCommand]

That's a lot of typing for one post, I didn't see the point though. Python is not necessarily a beginners language, it can get very advanced, and you can do many things with it. However though, because many beginners start with Python doesn't necessarily mean it's a beginners language.

[BC_Programmer]

That's a lot of typing for one post, I didn't see the point though. Python is not necessarily a beginners language, it can get very advanced, and you can do many things with it. However though, because many beginners start with Python doesn't necessarily mean it's a beginners language.

Nobody said that.

[Geek-9pm]

BC_Programmer,

You speak well. Yes, it is an academic issue. When you are in an English class thaey don't want you to use slang, unless they ask for it.

Te OOP idea is to help people think in structure. You can program without it.  But if you work with other people you better OOP.

There are only a few cases where speed of execution is the big thing. Most modern programming has complexity that requires good habits. clear documentation and easy maintenance.

One thing I did like about Borland TP was the ability to sneak in a bit of inline machine code. 

Speaking of them...
http://www.borland.com/
Look how much they stress application and not the details of the tools they have. When if comes down to it, if you want a job in the IT industry you have to be able to do piratical things. Which tool you use is less important.

Sometime s manager is very happy with a product that  the programmer thinks of as only a prototype in a script. So you do it in a script and tell him you need to do more work on it to speed it up.  When he gives the green light, you look for a better tool.

peaking of scripts,  Here is one kid who wants to lear TclTk
http://www.episteme.com/TclTk/
But he has broken links.
You can do GUI,  sort of, in TclTk. Here is a good link:
http://www.tcl.tk/

[BatchFileCommand]

That's a lot of typing for one post, I didn't see the point though. Python is not necessarily a beginners language, it can get very advanced, and you can do many things with it. However though, because many beginners start with Python doesn't necessarily mean it's a beginners language.

Nobody said that.

Python is easy enough for the beginner

How long does he want to be a beginner?

 

[macdad-]

Come on guys, we're arguing over programming languages 

This kind of question that Redcaa asked is only an 'Opinion question'.

[Geek-9pm]

Come on guys, we're arguing over programming languages 

This kind of question that Redcaa asked is only an 'Opinion question'.

Yeah. too much attention to the language. We should have asked does he want to be a programmer or just want to know which is the easy way to do something.

Do a search on  "Programming" in your favorite book store and find the the current topics are no longer about which language but about what do you want  to do. Presentations? Web  pages? Management?
Presently anything made by Adobe dominates.

[BC_Programmer]

Presently anything made by Adobe dominates.

Heh


That's what they used to say about Adobe Type Manager... 

[EEVIAC]

I would start with Basic to understand how the pieces of the puzzle of programming work, then dive into something more complicated after creating a programming knowledge foundation to build from and relate to other languages.

Would Basic be easier to learn as a beginner, than C++?  I don't know any languages... I've just got a C++ book that I haven't gotten into just yet...

[gh0std0g74]

Would Basic be easier to learn as a beginner, than C++?  I don't know any languages... I've just got a C++ book that I haven't gotten into just yet...

if you are a beginner to programming, learn Python. Forget about C++ or Basic  for the moment.

[Redcaa]

WOW! That is heck load of posts! Well just gone through and read the medium and short size posts lol. Ok so let me sum it up =\

These are the languages I have been suggested.

Python - Already done a tini tiny bit
Pascel
Basic

And people once again I hardly know the basics to I need some thing to get me started =)

E: Oh! And also what I meant by "powerful" is like making apps and such. I want to make GUI things in the easiest way possible.

[kpac]

Another reason why Python could be considered "powerful", is because you can also use it in Web applications. Google uses it.

[Salmon Trout]

what I meant by "powerful" is like making apps and such. I want to make GUI things in the easiest way possible.

http://www.autoitscript.com/autoit3/downloads.shtml

[Geek-9pm]

Salmon Trout, That looks good. Thanks for the tip. That could be a very good choice for a beginner. Nice IDE. Modern concepts.

[Redcaa]

Seems interesting. Thanks Salmon. Also I had a go at Just BASICS and it seems easy.

@Kpac You know you said " you can also use it in Web applications" what do you mean by that?

E: Ok I just downloaded the Self Extricating zip so I can keep it on my USB but I have no idea which file to open D:

[kpac]

@Kpac You know you said " you can also use it in Web applications" what do you mean by that?

You can use it along with HTML knowledge to create powerful websites.

[BatchFileCommand]

Autoit is also very nice. Made my first GUI program with it. However though, I have seen first hand how the language has been used to make viruses.

[BC_Programmer]

Autoit is also very nice. Made my first GUI program with it. However though, I have seen first hand how the language has been used to make viruses.

true, but any language can be used for that.

If you think about it- any tool/language that makes programming/software development easier will also make writing viruses easier.

[Salmon Trout]

FreeBasic is a pretty good free language, can be used with Qbasic compliant code

[macdad-]

FreeBasic is a pretty good free language, can be used with Qbasic compliant code

Really? That'll come in handy 

Any of you guys tried Borland's C++ IDE?

[BC_Programmer]

Really? That'll come in handy 

Any of you guys tried Borland's C++ IDE?

Ages ago.

Or do you mean a new one? I'm thinking of Turbo C++...

[2x3i5x]

C programming yeah. they said it's not hard to learn yet it does well....

[macdad-]

Ages ago.

Or do you mean a new one? I'm thinking of Turbo C++...

I mean Borland's newer version of their C++ IDE.

[BatchFileCommand]

If you think about it- any tool/language that makes programming/software development easier will also make writing viruses easier.

Well, Keyloggers are fairly easy to make with autoit.

[macdad-]

Well, Keyloggers are fairly easy to make with autoit.

Lets not give anyone any ideas 

[Redcaa]

Can some one please answer my question?

[Helpmeh]

Try reading the posts. The short-medium ones are probably the most useful. The long ones are mainly ranting at other members.

[gh0std0g74]

Can some one please answer my question?

there's no one true solution to your problem. the meaning of "easiest" are not the same for everyone. This also depends on what you want to do. So just get started on any one of them already. How much time are you still going to waste around here looking for an open ended questions that has no answer.?

[Geek-9pm]

OK. One last shot.
It is not the language. It is the style.
You can do teach in COBOL.
You can be elegant in C.

Years ago I paid a lot of money to learn PL/1. Some feel that it was the turning point of reason against chaos.

Here is a book about the idea of structured programming. Some say that it is bunk. Others believe it will save the world.

http://www.amazon.com/PL-Structured-Programming-Joan-Hughes/dp/0471837466

This thread has gone too long. The OP should now have enough.

[Redcaa]

I wasn't reffering to my first post.  If you had read my last post I asked that

Seems interesting. Thanks Salmon. Also I had a go at Just BASICS and it seems easy.

@Kpac You know you said " you can also use it in Web applications" what do you mean by that?

E: Ok I just downloaded the Self Extricating zip so I can keep it on my USB but I have no idea which file to open D: