Internet and web page development

[kpac]

Where are you trying to go with this?

[BC_Programmer]

The issue here, is a misunderstanding about levels of abstraction.

Now, if somebody says, "you can only program a PC Microprocessor with machine code" the quick response will be, "no, I can do it in basic/C/C++ and so forth.

Those are both true. But, they all boil down to machine code instructions; Programming Languages are levels of abstraction.

If somebody says that "the PC only recieves input through it's external ports" people will be quick to say things like "what about the mouse or keyboard" well, they evidently plug into the ports. they are merely a physical form for which to send the data into those ports. Trackballs and mice, as well as trackpads and trackpoints, are all physical abstractions to the same PS/2 or USB interface, and they all behave the same way- they move the pointer.

What was said is that HTML can only really be used for web development.

Guess what? it's true. Sure, you can use your Trillex, or Komposer, or Even microsoft word, but they all output the same thing; the same thing the browser understands. HTML.

Web pages are all interpreted by a browser in HTML. a browser only knows HTML; anything else is Within the HTML (javascript or CSS, for example) referenced by the HTML, or never actually seen by the browser because it's handled by the server (php, asp, cgi). (passing note for XHTML here)

That being said HTML is the only way to control what a browser displays on your web page. How you CHANGE that html, however, is another story altogether. geek saying that trillex is a alternative to HTML is like saying that cake mix is an alternative to baking from scratch; it certainly is an alternative, but the result is still a cake. with Trillex (A.K.A, the mix cake) you have predefined elements. generally, cake mix offers a single option; chocolate, for example. you cannot, under normal circumstances, substitutes ingredients already in the mix. however, with a cake made from scratch, you can add and change anything you please; as long as you know your cake.

Basically, what I mean is, everybody loves cake. I mean, that's why it's a birthday tradition, right? because everybody loves cake.

I mean... umm... The same story goes for HTML. of course the analogy isn't perfect, but in general since a program for generating HTML can only create a predetermined number of permutations of HTML based on it's programming and those permutations far from fit every discernable situation for using that HTML that it stands to reason that learning HTML on it's own can be advantageous for editing the results from these so-called HTML editors directly, (like putting cherries or something in a cake)  Or, creating new HTML documents from scratch.

Learning HTML itself is more advantageous to the activity of web development in the same way that learning how to bake a cake is advantageous to the act of making a scrumptious cake. and, with web development, you taste the rewards of your efforts with a web site that doesn't look the same as every grade school student in the country. With a cake, you get a *censored* FINE TREAT! and everybody loves a good piece of cake. therefore, I preclude that everybody loves HTML.

Now, another parallel could be drawn  re my last argument about "sameness". a web dev tool like Trillex or whatever- is programmed. it can only have a finite number of outputs for any input. Additionally, since the input is completely predefined (oh! you want bold text! you want italics?) then so is the output (again, finite) (ok, heres a b and an i tag). Since most people generally don't stray too far from the defaults; almost all pages created with a tool look the same.

Take Microsoft word's resume wizard. Anybody who uses this is a tool. I mean, sure, it looks good- but how many OTHER resumes in that pile are going to have been made using word's resume wizard? How will yours look any different from that smelly guy that lives down the street? the answer is, it won't, and it won't attract much attention.

Now, people say, "but it doesn't matter if my site looks the same as a bunch of others! After all, it's the site content that's more important!" Which is right, as well as wrong. You see, just as with a resume, if the reviewer of a resume notices that a good number of resumes use the same default formatting as the default options for the resume wizard, they might not even BOTHER to look at the content. basically, by designing the resume, or a web site, in a professional (which means no trillex or other finite-output tools) manner, you tell people that you CARE about the content, that the content was done with as much care as the site itself. This is not the case with standard boilerplate web sites, where you evidently were more interested in putting the content up then anything else, which, on the one hand, can appeal to people, because you evidently had a reason to post it. But, looking at it, they will notice your excitement came purely because of your discover of the ability to use Marquee and blink tags nested together. Not as tags of course, but as formatting options within your finite output state machine HTML outputter.

[kpac]

I should have known that was coming. 
Perfect explanation.

[Geek-9pm]

What was said is that HTML can only really be used for web development.

BC confuses development with deployment.
But even deployment does not need much to say the message
http://geek9pm.com/welcome.txt

[kpac]

This page is an example of how you can do a webpage that can be seen on almost any modern browser and it does not require the use of your markup language. Because the point of all this is to demonstrate that that particular markup thing is not required to put information out on the Internet so that other people can see it with a web browser.

It doesn't need a markup language because it is raw text and the browser understands that. HTML is also raw input.

[Geek-9pm]

It doesn't need a markup language because it is raw text and the browser understands that. HTML is also raw input.

Glad you agree with me. At least in principal, if not in detail.

The original question was about web development.
You should use a tool that encourages web development.

If you want to learn to drive a car,
do yoou need to know how to change a tire?

Is not BC is telling people that you can better handle a stirring whee...
l if you know how to use a tire iron?

[kpac]

I don't follow.

The OP asked which language they should use for Internet and web page development.
There is only one available, unless of course they want to use plain text.

[BC_Programmer]

If you want to learn to drive a car,
do yoou need to know how to change a tire?

no no, that's not what I mean; Obviously, it's similar to my comparison re: programming languages; they all boil down toe assembly/Machine code. Of course, you don't need to know machine/assembly to write programs in C, or BASIC, or what have you, but understanding Assembly language and machine code, and how it's generated from the language your using, can be a big help for situations that may arise down the road- such things as understanding stack frames, registers, etc. can all help. I've had to debug some of my own Visual Basic projects in C++ 6 using the dissassembly viewer, and it wasn't fun, but it was only possible because I had a working understanding of Assembly language. (I of course later discovered the "compile debug symbols" feature of VB6 and was able to debug and see the actual VB source code rather then dissasembly in VC6, but I've only had to use that a few times so far).

Anyway, the same applies to Web development tools; certainly, you can use a HTML editor program, such as those you've recommended, but knowing HTML is probably the biggest and most important thing if you want to do anything unique or different from the provided templates.

Is not BC is telling people that you can better handle a stirring whee...
l if you know how to use a tire iron?

Again, not necessarily what I meant; if you know how to use a tire iron though, you are better prepared to deal with situations that may arise while driving, such as flat tires and so forth. When you use a steering wheel- your driving; you don't think, "I'm using a steering wheel" you focus on the goal- where your going, "I'm driving to aunt Martha's Funeral" you don't necessarily focus on the tools being used. Which is a major plus; this is the gap that wysiwyg development tools are built for. People who simply don't have time to try to learn HTML, or, more precisely, people who just want their content out there, as you've said, Geek-9pm. And in these situations, it's certainly alright. However, in the context if this particular thread, the poll suggestions are limited, and the only language that is understood by a web browser in that list is HTML.

[Geek-9pm]

New Rant() void.
Begin
Good morning BC,
That was a good one. And I really do hope that the this rambling we do back and forth will benefit others who want to learn more about rogue ramming skills and system design and things like that. The reason I jumped on your statement is the original poster only gave us a few choices and he said which language should I use for development. I understood his question to mean what sort of abstract language would the human use to put down his ideas. Not what language would be used by the browser to interpret and display what the human wanted to show. Granted, HTML is the de facto notation used to control browsers.

However, before HTML was even invented the Internet existed in some form. Perhaps it wasn't called Internet. We used to get on CompuServe and exchange text messages and could read pages posted on some sites such as businesses and universities. Many of these early pages which are simply text files and a carriage return would indicate the end of line. And that, was basically the only formatting you had in those early days. I post the link above to a page called a welcome.txt that is written just in text with hard line returns I didn't even have to come close to any HTML editor to produce it I first produced it as a rich text document, then I had Microsoft word right out as a text document with hard carriage returns. But I placed it on the website and I gave a link, which I did not write an HTML by the way, and there you have it. So I put up a webpage and I gave you a link and I didn't have to do one twit of HTML.
I wish that the original poster would've put up one more option. The additional option should be, you don't have to use any of the above.
I suppose most people would say HTML. But for the purpose of opening up people's minds and letting them understand their other things out there, I would say do some real hard study of PHP. The reason that PHP was developed in the first place, was because HTML is such a bear. It is so so much easier to do something useful in PHP. Yes, somewhere in the process the PHP code gets converted into HTML. But so what? Same thing if you write a program and Pascal, somewhere it gets written to another form and eventually becomes machine code that operates on a specific system. You don't need to know what twit about machine code to write a Pascal program.
Maybe the question should have been rephrased as to what language is used for deployment of webpages. For me, the word deployment would be the more appropriate word. HTML is the transport, it's the freight car, it's the steamship. But in any case, the actual content is something that human designed and created first in his mind and later on a computer screen. He could have used any number of editors to visualize what he wants to show he could have done it in Microsoft Word, a poor choice, but it works. He then could exported as HTML and send it up to a website.
Speaking of alternate development tools, the Adobe collection of stuff is there a popular with many people. You get into that and you forget all about HTML. You learn the Adobe system for page design, and you forget what ever the different HTML tags meant. And there is ColdFusion. Many people believe ColdFusion is the greatest thing since bacon and eggs.
Well, I think that's enough for now. As you can see, this again is being done by the speech recognition software. I'm not going to to correct it. I have it in font 22 and I still can't see all the mistakes it makes. Well, enough crying in my beer.
Return to Sender
End.

[kpac]

I would say do some real hard study of PHP. The reason that PHP was developed in the first place, was because HTML is such a bear. It is so so much easier to do something useful in PHP. Yes, somewhere in the process the PHP code gets converted into HTML. But so what?

But you have to understand HTML to write PHP. PHP is nothing on its own.

He could have used any number of editors to visualize what he wants to show he could have done it in Microsoft Word, a poor choice, but it works. He then could exported as HTML and send it up to a website.
Speaking of alternate development tools, the Adobe collection of stuff is there a popular with many people. You get into that and you forget all about HTML. You learn the Adobe system for page design, and you forget what ever the different HTML tags meant.

Yes, he could have used a WYSIWYG editor, but from the way the question was asked, the OP wants to know what language to code in.

And there is ColdFusion. Many people believe ColdFusion is the greatest thing since bacon and eggs.

ColdFusion is just like another version of PHP. Without HTML, it's useless.

[BC_Programmer]

the choices were:

HDML
HTML
JavaScript
PHP
XML

HTML is necessary to use PHP, and javascript is useless without HTML, XML is a data definition language, and HDML is just a subset of HTML, so really HTML is the only one that would be any use to learn.

[Geek-9pm]

Do web development in PHP.
Bake a cake from a box.

[BC_Programmer]

Do web development in PHP.
Bake a cake from a box.

 

PHP is a script language. you use echo to return results that are sent to the browser.

the browser interprets what is sent by echo. the browser understands html. what is sent by echo needs to be html. in order to send html via echo, you must know html.

[harry 48]

heh

good catch...

Yes Kareem, Do tell!

Yeah, and if your going to waste it, waste it properly, like I do.

thank you , i thought someone else would have checked that out

the topic goe's on but i think the op has gone

[kareem eltanahy]

why do you ask when you have 5 years of pc programming

i am not so good at html so i was trying to find an easy way to  develop a web page