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Author Topic: To copy music or not to copy music, that is the question  (Read 5498 times)

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willythecat

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    Forgetting the grey area of torrent download sites, assuming you have access to a legal site that has most tunes playable in full, and if you install another legal program that can grab streamed music, is copying this music legal or illegal?
    The laws get so confusing!

    2x3i5x



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    Re: To copy music or not to copy music, that is the question
    « Reply #1 on: May 30, 2009, 11:22:22 PM »
    This would be fine because after all, you have purchased the music and you are using legal programs. But you can't reproduce, redistribute or do anything that would constitute as copyright breaking unless you have the right to do it.

    Carbon Dudeoxide

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    Re: To copy music or not to copy music, that is the question
    « Reply #2 on: May 30, 2009, 11:31:12 PM »
    If you have bought the song, you're safe. If you are downloading the song by any means and you have not purchased it, it is against the copyright laws.

    Quote
    and if you install another legal program that can grab streamed music,
    uTorrent is a legal program yet it is mostly used to download copyrighted material. They're just software.

    2x3i5x



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    Re: To copy music or not to copy music, that is the question
    « Reply #3 on: May 30, 2009, 11:34:52 PM »
    If you have bought the song, you're safe. If you are downloading the song by any means and you have not purchased it, it is against the copyright laws.
    uTorrent is a legal program yet it is mostly used to download copyrighted material. They're just software.

    Software itself is not really what's causing the problem, it's more so what people are doing with the software that are causing the problem. That's what I see.

    willythecat

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      Re: To copy music or not to copy music, that is the question
      « Reply #4 on: May 31, 2009, 01:24:24 AM »
      Thanks everyone, but.....
      I haven't purchased the music. It's a newish site (perfectly legal) where you can "listen" to most of the tunes available now, and in full.
      Does that change things?

      2x3i5x



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      Re: To copy music or not to copy music, that is the question
      « Reply #5 on: May 31, 2009, 01:44:41 AM »
      Thanks everyone, but.....
      I haven't purchased the music. It's a newish site (perfectly legal) where you can "listen" to most of the tunes available now, and in full.
      Does that change things?


      If the website you get the music from is perfectly legal and they're allowing you to listen to if for free, and you are using a legal software to "Grab" the music, I don't think you'd have a problem if you were just keeping the music so you can listen to it whenever you wanted to (personal entertainment) but if you suddenly started massively distributing the music so that many many many other people can download it or get it, then there's a problem.

      Rob Pomeroy



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      Re: To copy music or not to copy music, that is the question
      « Reply #6 on: June 01, 2009, 05:50:12 AM »
      How about looking at the terms of use posted on the web site in question?  Owners of copyright have a wide right to determine how their works can be used and distributed.  If a copyright notice on the web site states, "You may listen to tracks on this web site only by using the streaming facilities provided.  Capture, downloading or permanent storage of the tracks is strictly prohibited", then I submit you are on unstable ground.
      Only able to visit the forums sporadically, sorry.

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      2x3i5x



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      Re: To copy music or not to copy music, that is the question
      « Reply #7 on: June 01, 2009, 10:30:25 AM »
      How about looking at the terms of use posted on the web site in question?  Owners of copyright have a wide right to determine how their works can be used and distributed.  If a copyright notice on the web site states, "You may listen to tracks on this web site only by using the streaming facilities provided.  Capture, downloading or permanent storage of the tracks is strictly prohibited", then I submit you are on unstable ground.

      Sure, you need to agree to their terms of service but I wouldn't worry if you are just listening for personal enjoyment. Not giving away, not redistributing it anyway else, nothing.

      Rob Pomeroy



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      Re: To copy music or not to copy music, that is the question
      « Reply #8 on: June 03, 2009, 12:32:46 PM »
      Well there is a big difference between a legally correct answer and a pragmatic answer.

      Reductio ad absurdum: downloading child pornography is illegal.  But is it okay if it's just for personal enjoyment?

      Here's a simple, two step self-evaluation questionnaire that should help everyone make up his or her own mind:

      Q 1:  Are you committed to morality?  If yes, go to question 2, otherwise do whatever you want but I reserve the right to kill you whenever I feel like it.

      Q 2: Is it immoral to break copyright laws (for personal enjoyment or any other reason)?  If yes, then stop.  If no, then go ahead, but I reserve the right to steal anything you ever write, paint, compose or invent and do whatever I want to with it, without any reference for you.  I will justify this on the grounds of personal enjoyment.
      Only able to visit the forums sporadically, sorry.

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      Ironman



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      Re: To copy music or not to copy music, that is the question
      « Reply #9 on: June 03, 2009, 04:51:54 PM »
      Well there is a big difference between a legally correct answer and a pragmatic answer.

      Reductio ad absurdum: downloading child pornography is illegal.  But is it okay if it's just for personal enjoyment?

      Here's a simple, two step self-evaluation questionnaire that should help everyone make up his or her own mind:

      Q 1:  Are you committed to morality?  If yes, go to question 2, otherwise do whatever you want but I reserve the right to kill you whenever I feel like it.

      Q 2: Is it immoral to break copyright laws (for personal enjoyment or any other reason)?  If yes, then stop.  If no, then go ahead, but I reserve the right to steal anything you ever write, paint, compose or invent and do whatever I want to with it, without any reference for you.  I will justify this on the grounds of personal enjoyment.

      I choose my own morals..


      patio

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      Re: To copy music or not to copy music, that is the question
      « Reply #10 on: June 03, 2009, 04:59:07 PM »
      I choose my own morals..

      That's quite a cop out considering how well the Guidelines were illustrated above...
      " Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "

      BC_Programmer


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      Re: To copy music or not to copy music, that is the question
      « Reply #11 on: June 03, 2009, 05:07:02 PM »
      *applause*

      Rob, that was awesome.
      I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

      Rob Pomeroy



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      Re: To copy music or not to copy music, that is the question
      « Reply #12 on: June 04, 2009, 05:07:36 AM »
      Thank you.  :)

      In respect of choosing one's own morals, of course everyone does this.  But what is the basis upon which we choose our morals?  How do we know right from wrong?  On the basis of an external absolute moral code (e.g. laws, religion or whatever)?  Or on the basis of an internal code (how we feel about things)?  In the latter case, if we choose on the basis of feeling, let me steal a quote from Ravi Zacharias.

      Quote
      In some cultures they love their neighbours; in other cultures in other cultures they eat them, both on the basis of feeling.  Do you have a preference?
      Only able to visit the forums sporadically, sorry.

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      Ironman



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      Re: To copy music or not to copy music, that is the question
      « Reply #13 on: June 04, 2009, 07:17:58 AM »
      there is no universal moral law...


      BC_Programmer


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      Re: To copy music or not to copy music, that is the question
      « Reply #14 on: June 04, 2009, 09:40:21 AM »
      well, I like to think of it like this.

      Some people justify pirating/stealing programs by saying that it costs nothing to duplicate. This is true- a simple copy of the original. However-

      Take, for example, a sculpture or painting. People make replicas of sculptures and paintings all the time, and they get sold for cheaper, or in some cases given away.

      But a replica is NOT a duplicate. If it were possible, via a machine, to make an exact duplicate, atom for atom, that was indistiguishable from the original, how are we to tell them apart? In a sense, they are both the original and thus the artist can exercise the same rights over any duplicates as they do to their original copy. And of course any modifications to these "originals" is more or less vandalism.

      The same sort of logic is easily applied to programs and music. the original artists work IS the duplicate, since the duplicate program is indistiguishable from the original, (not counting of course "vandalism" such as with "black XP" or "last XP" with Pirated Windows XP copies, for example) Because of this the artist (in this case the software manufacturer) can exercise the same rights over this duplicate as they would over an original piece of property.

      Just because it's easy to duplicate something doesn't make it moral. It still takes work to make the original; and wether you like it or not, the duplicates aren't necessarily products of the original but really. they are the original.

      there is no universal moral law...

      actually, there are quite a lot of base set of morals that almost every culture recognizes. The only cultures, I believe, that would think stealing is not immoral are probably deep in a jungle somewhere. Even so; a persons actions are viewed by others in the light of some culture, and given that any software-exposed culture has the basic tenet of "theft is wrong" it can be deduced that, in the context of the internet at least, there IS a universal moral law.


      Even forgetting about the moral aspect, it's still illegal. you cannot argue against a law saying it simply doesn't agree with your morals. Sure, you can attack it on the basis of a constitution, but intellectual property rights do not infringe on the rights of the individual. Their infringement, on the other hand, constitute a violation against the rights of the copyright owner.
      I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.