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Author Topic: Microsoft violated the Constitution?  (Read 18195 times)

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BC_Programmer


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Re: Microsoft violated the Constitution?
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2009, 09:04:36 PM »
I remember that the UK was doing some legal action because microsoft was forcing users to use IE at the beginning. After this was resolved, WIN7UK got canceled.

I believe that was the EU.

The European Union is still upset that Microsoft Encarta refused to have more then a sentence or two about the possibilities of cuisine with frog legs or snails.
I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

rthompson80819



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Re: Microsoft violated the Constitution?
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2009, 09:42:48 PM »
Quote
The European Union is still upset that Microsoft Encarta refused to have more then a sentence or two about the possibilities of cuisine with frog legs or snails.

Frog legs taste like chicken but without a ton of butter and garlic I shudder what snails would taste like.

Geek-9pm

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Re: Microsoft violated the Constitution?
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2009, 11:02:46 PM »
Frog legs taste like chicken but without a ton of butter and garlic I shudder what snails would taste like.
On a cruise I tried some. Like rubber with garlic and butter.I did it voluntarily. I would hate to have someone tell me I can not choose. If MS had its way we would all have to eat Southern Fried Chicken, like it or not. No French cuisine.

The big crime MS did in Europe was getting rid of Digital Research in the DOS market. This paved the way for MS to later dominant the graphical interface de4sktop. Of course, there weer other factors. But DR was big in Europe at one time and MS wanted them out of the market. Whether or not DR tasted like garlic and butter was not the point. MS did not want the Europe market to be fair and open competition. The had used sales techniques  that were unfair. It was documented.

Of course, that is all in the past. Nothing to worry about now. -Right?

How would you like your fried ch chicken?
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Re: Microsoft violated the Constitution?
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2009, 12:37:40 AM »
Everybody is so anti-MS, claiming that they are out to make a buck, and don't want quality competition.  I have a surprise for you - they are a corporation.

Name one corporation that has OUR best interests at heart.  Come on, I dare you.
Evil is an exact science.

Geek-9pm

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Re: Microsoft violated the Constitution?
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2009, 01:10:31 AM »
Everybody is so anti-MS, claiming that they are out to make a buck, and don't want quality competition.  I have a surprise for you - they are a corporation.

Name one corporation that has OUR best interests at heart.  Come on, I dare you.
Well, how much time do I have?
No, too hard. Instead I will enlarge your point.
No to go too far off the topic, but a recent item on the telly was on computer related security issue with the nations' power grid. The top guys from the Big Power companies lied to Congress. The told them they weer considering the security issue. Later they had to admit they did not do a thing. If half of this is true, the the biggest  abuse of computer profit is not in Microsoft's Corporate structure. Rather, it is all the others who are in charge of more vital services.

Just imagine what it would be like if we had a major power outage in several large cites for two three weeks. That is the kind of risk Congress was finding in the investigation. It can be done with Trojans that get into the system that control the large turbines at the power houses. Think about it.

BC_Programmer


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Re: Microsoft violated the Constitution?
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2009, 12:43:39 PM »
the Digital Research DOS was not MS-DOS. look at the system requirements for Windows 3.0 and 3.1.

MS-DOS or PC-DOS

While it's true that they might have gone out of their way to make windows not work with DR-DOS, if any change they could make makes windows not work on DR-DOS and still work on MS-DOS and PC-DOS it stands to reason that DR-DOS was not actually MS-DOS compatible.

I cannot find anything about this, nor had I really heard much about it until you brought it up last time. The main one I've heard was the 3.11 update breaking OS/2's ability to run windows within it. People blamed MS for purposefully changing windows dlls to break it.

What really happened was that IBM's method of hooking into windows was to use hard-coded function ordinals, in such a way that it guaranteed ANY change to the windows codebase would break the functionality.

In either case, the windows 3.1 detection logic was only present in the beta anyway (http://www.ddj.com/windows/184409070?pgno=4)

Quote
Certainly, it's true that DOS workalikes such as DR DOS have to pretend to be an older version of DOS (DOS 3.31, for instance) if they want to run Windows Enhanced mode. This is because of an undocumented interface shared by the Windows Enhanced mode DOSMGR virtual device driver (VxD) inside WIN386.EXE and MS-DOS 5 and 6. To appear as more recent versions of DOS, would-be clones must reverse-engineer and implement this undocumented protocol.

So whenever I've heard accusations that Microsoft practices so-called "cruel coding" to keep Windows from running on DR DOS, I look at the facts: Windows 3.1 Enhanced mode does run on DR DOS. Standard mode does not run, but that's because of a DR DOS bug acknowledged by Novell (see Undocumented DOS, Second Edition).



Even so, the AARD code is full of interesting tests. the article outlines these. All but the last one should be passed by any sufficient emulation of MS-DOS... it's the last test which sets it apart.

But it doesn't matter. the code is never executed in the retail version of windows 3.1, so again... not sure how that can affect DR-DOS users unless they like using pre-release pirated versions.
I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

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Re: Microsoft violated the Constitution?
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2009, 02:10:03 PM »
BC, I do not think everyone wants a rehash of the episode.
But hre are some details.
I bought a real Windows 3.1 and it did not want to install with DR DOS. It was NOT a beta. This 'fluke' was well-documented and it was not anything to do with fun tonality. It was a Hack in any sense of the word. It was hidden. No objective did it have but scare users away from DR DOS.

That was so long ago that the people have forgot.  It was not a rumor. It was not a real software design thing. It was a hack to alter the marketplace. And it was so well documented that Microsoft did admit to it and claimed that it was the product of a single individual and put the blame on him. End of story.

So, then we are supposed to forget that, because Microsoft did not do it. Just some misguide hacker who managed to cripple the free market in Europe .

Let me know it you need the links that have this old story.

BC_Programmer


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Re: Microsoft violated the Constitution?
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2009, 02:38:25 PM »
Yes, link me!  :)
I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

patio

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Re: Microsoft violated the Constitution?
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2009, 02:43:23 PM »
Linkages...Please.
" Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "

Geek-9pm

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Re: Microsoft violated the Constitution?
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2009, 04:06:15 PM »
This is old history. But if you want to, I will dig it up. You may find some of it in your library.
We are looking for more information on
DR-DOS,
Windwos 3.1
the AARD code
Graham Lea (Anti MS Author)

More recent article by Graham Lea.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2000/11/28/ms_denies_everything_in_trial/

That bad things was in the beta of 3.1 is admitted.
But fake scare was in the retail version also.
Here is a starting point:
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1626398/the_microsoft_anti_microsoft_conundrum.html?cat=9

Some of the information is not presently online. I am checking this out now.
BTW, one of the Lawyers that was against Microsoft is now going after Google instead. Odd enough, seems that Google has purged some of the anti MS stuff from archives. I found a book article.  More later.

BC_Programmer


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Re: Microsoft violated the Constitution?
« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2009, 05:23:09 PM »
the DDJ article was a lot more thorough then anything else I was able to find. It doesn't randomly conclude some anti-MS crap, and instead actually explores WHAT was in the code, and also explains how it is not active in the retail.

A monopoly means that they control the market. If they did, I doubt users would have the option of running Linux.

There was nothing stopping people from continuing to use DR.DOS if it was the case that they were actually affected by a piece of code that was explicitly skipped in the retail release; they could simply return their copy of windows 3.1. The fact that they would instead work to get windows 3.1 working attests to the fact that even in the case that it was a purposeful move by MS (which it would have been, again- if the code was actually enabled) The fact is, Windows 3.1 may not have technically been a operating system, it was treated as one. So when users of DR DOS had to choose between continuing to use DR-DOS and opting for windows 3.1 (which ideally would not be a mutually exclusive decision) the fact that they chose to use windows says a lot.

I will now humour your claim that the code was "enabled" and activated for you. While this is impossible as I look at the dissassembly, I will humour you.

About what? well, consider that, at the time, Windows was NOT the only desktop environment. DesqView ran perfectly fine under DR-DOS, as did the many other similar desktop environments. If windows 3.1 refused to run on DR-DOS, why did those users not then turn to an alternate vendor?

OS/2 was released at that time as well. why did nobody turn to OS/2 rather then use windows 3.1?

If the people using DR-DOS chose a non-MS DOS, why could they not choose a Non-MS GUI?

It wasn't the "AARD" code that was the issue. It was not. it was the fact that users still had a choice to NOT use windows 3.1, and they opted to use it. How is this MS's fault?

Generally this type of restriction would be considered bad for business, as the above scenario would play out as described- people would simply use an alternative. The reason it didn't happen here is simply because while people claim to vouch for the little guy, it's the exact opposite when it comes to purchasing software. Many people I know are the type who say negative stuff about Microsoft, security related or otherwise, and yet they can't seem to put their mouse where their mouth is and actually run a Non-microsoft OS.

Sure, it's because they aren't familar with anything else. That's beside the point. Microsoft didn't force schools and businesses to use versions of windows, and many Linux alternatives can even do the job better if properly configured for free or for a small support contract if preferred. These alternatives are not obscure by any means, so why do people choose big bad microsoft? If they hate it so much, why do they use it?

It's a load of non-sense. people say one thing, and do another, make one claim, and back it up with another, and it's utterly ridiculous. If Microsoft "sucked" so badly, nobody would be using it. This has nothing to do with market penetration as it does with people being both clueless and not bothered enough to do anything. basically, if Microsoft was so awful, then that move would have bankrupted them. the fact is the users chose not to use DR-DOS and instead chose to use windows, how this is somehow all because if Microsoft's big bad tactics and not related to user choice which was the deciding factor beats me.

Consider for a moment a similar scenario.

Let's say, MS office would refuse to install if you had, say, any part of OpenOffice installed. What would happen? Well, most people have already decided to use OO instead of MSOffice when they install it, so nothing happens.

Now let's assume, say- that you couldn't install apache or MySQL on any of the windows server machines. what would happen there? It depends, people could buy and install SQL Server, or they could get a copy of Linux for free, and install apache on that. How exactly Microsoft forcing this decision on people is a bad thing beats me.

Yes. the code is not necessary. Yes it is extra stuff, and it is absolutely unnecessary, and Windows 3.1 runs fine on DR-DOS.

But heres the thing- as I said- the people who then dumped DR-DOS CHOSE to do so. it was not a forced decision. they could have, as I said, used an alternative compatible user interface. but they did not.

If people had largely done this, would Microsoft been under scrutiny? they would have done the exact same thing they had before, but punishing somebody for effect rather then cause seems a bit uninsightful to me.


An good summary:

Windows user when their PC freezes:

Stupid windows! always freezing! Microsoft is crap and sucks! Now I'll never get this report finished while I play music and burn a CD all at once!

Linux User:

Hmm, interesting, a kernel panic. must be a hardware problem. guess I shouldn't try to play music and burn CDs while I'm working on it

The difference in attitude is astounding and prolific. Something bad happens on a PC running windows? Somehow, it's Microsoft's fault. Any other PC and the cause is elsewhere.
I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

Geek-9pm

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Re: Microsoft violated the Constitution?
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2009, 05:44:56 PM »
Quote
A monopoly means that they control the market. If they did, I doubt users would have the option of running Linux.
Stop the non sense, BC

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Re: Microsoft violated the Constitution?
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2009, 06:26:58 PM »
Stop the non sense, BC

On the contrary, I have rarely met anyone as concise or as thoughtful as BC.
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Re: Microsoft violated the Constitution?
« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2009, 07:23:46 PM »
Quote
On January 9, 2000, Microsoft and Caldera announced that they had reached a settlement after a four-year antitrust legal battle. As a consulting expert to Caldera during its lawsuit against Microsoft, Andrew Schulman worked on some of the technical details of the case, which concerned Microsoft's use of Windows to protect MS-DOS while undermining DR DOS. However, because the case was recently settled out of court, valuable court documents could be sealed. Fortunately, there's still a valuable dossier online that offers insight into Caldera v. Microsoft, and the judge has ruled to unseal additional documents. The public can still inspect this case, and learn from this example how technical decisions are influenced by business and political interests. Schulman talks about what you'll find in this dossier, encouraging you to look deeper into matters that are still in dispute today.
http://www.oreillynet.com/network/2000/02/07/schulman.html

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Re: Microsoft violated the Constitution?
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2009, 07:25:59 PM »
Just because one corporation that doesn't care about us little people settles out of court with another corporation that doesn't care about us doesn't make it right.

Is that even a sentence?
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