Class Action Law Suit against Obama Health Care

[grandpa_simpson]

If you live in the United States and opose the new Obama Health Care law, you can join the newly filed class action law suit against it.  The suit challeges the constitutionality of the Health Care Law.   In a nut shell, the government has no right to control the health care system..


Here is the Fox News story:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04/13/citizens-opposed-health-care-law-join-lawsuit-democratic-leaders/

Here is the site to join the suit:
http://www.van4congress.org/contact/obamacare-class-action/

They require donating any amount to verify your identity.  I donated the "recommended" amount of $10 to help with there administrative costs.  It's a small price to pay to fight for the rights of your country, especially given that our soldiers are dying all the time, defending our freedom.

Although there are some good things in the health bill, we cannot allow the government to control health care.

[Salmon Trout]

What a bunch of crap. I don't like to see Tea Party propaganda on this site. Your $10 in no way equates with the sacrifice of the poor soldiers forced to die in a pointless war.

[Broni]

It's much better to have millions of uninsured people.

I'd suggest, that those people behind the above idiocy read more, maybe travel more to find out, that a whole civilized world has free public health care, except for.....US.

I'd like to see few of those people in a hospital, when their private insurance money run out and they have a choice of dying, or selling their house.

[grandpa_simpson]

Salmon, I'm don't have much money, but I will give what I can to help.  

Your $10 in no way equates with the sacrifice of the poor soldiers forced to die in a pointless war.

The war is really besides the point of this, it's only a point of view.  Your comment has nothing to do with the main point of the topic.  If you opose the health care law, join the suit, that's all I'm trying to say..

This has nothing to do with the Tea Party or the "left" or "right" side of the government.  It's about standing up for the United States' rights to free enterprise.

[grandpa_simpson]

I'd like to see few of those people in a hospital, when their private insurance money run out and they have a choice of dying, or selling their house.

You have a point here.  The health care system needs some changes, but not reform.

[Broni]

I'm don't have much money, but I will give what I can to help.

 
You better send those 10 bucks to Africa. It'll feed couple of kids for 6 months.

Your comment has nothing to do with the main point of the topic.

Ii has a lot to do with the topic. What about those poor soldiers, who got their legs cut off and they end up on the street, because nothing covers them anymore and nobody cares. Especially " free enterprise(s)", like private health insurance.

The health care system needs some changes, but not reform.

Yes, little by little and around year 2199 the problem will be solved.

[grandpa_simpson]

Ii has a lot to do with the topic. What about those poor soldiers, who got their legs cut off and they end up on the street, because nothing covers them anymore and nobody cares. Especially " free enterprise(s)", like private health insurance.

In the context that Salmon made that comment, it has absolutely nothing to do with the MAIN point of this topic.  The context of your comment if quite different, and I totally agree with it.  The health care system needs changes to do away with these types of things, but not total reform.

[Broni]

Why?

[grandpa_simpson]

I respect your question Broni, but it wasn't my intention to go into a disscussion about the various aspects of the health care law. 

If you opose the law, joining the suit is one thing you can do to help.

[BC_Programmer]

The war is really besides the point of this, it's only a point of view.  Your comment has nothing to do with the main point of the topic.  If you opose the health care law, join the suit, that's all I'm trying to say..

you're the one that mentioned it:

It's a small price to pay to fight for the rights of your country, especially given that our soldiers are dying all the time, defending our freedom.

it's not a "point of view" regarding health care, it's entirely redundant. It's like saying that you think watermelons cost too much and reducing their cost is a small price for grocery stores t opay given that soldiers are dying all the time, defending your freedom, which is clearly ridiculous.

This has nothing to do with the Tea Party or the "left" or "right" side of the government.  It's about standing up for the United States' rights to free enterprise.

I can't believe, there are actually people opposed to government subsidized/owned health care. In Canada(And I believe in the UK), health care is free. It's paid for from the federal taxes that I get taken off my pay, and if I didn't have a job, it's still free. I don't need "health insurance" because in essence I get it essentially free with the taxes I have to pay anyway. See, that's the difference. The federal taxes I pay go right back into services that I can take advantage of if I'm sick or injured. Sure, there are similar services in the U.S (Medicare/Medicaid, welfare, and so forth, but comparing the two I find that we aren't spending a good quarter of our taxes into "national defense",(seriously, does the average person really see a personal benefit to that? No.) and that some of our taxes are actually being put into the deficit, something which certain other countries seem to be entirely ignoring, for the most part. I don't doubt a dissimiliar situation in the UK, although for reasons that should be obvious I have a habit of Watching my country rather closely Which brings me to another point:

It's a small price to pay to fight for the rights of your country

Yes, fight for your right to pay for what nearly the rest of the world is getting for free. That's certainly a worthy cause. Because everybody knows Canada, the U.K, Australia, Brazil (I think) and all of those countries with federally funded and publically available health care. Are clearly all communist/Socialist. HOW DARE their governments actually provide free services to the people! Somebody ought to bomb them for their insolence.

All that being said, health care isn't perfect even in those countries, there are of course doctor, nurse and bed shortages, there have been a few strike threats, and there have even been strikes (which was unusual since they couldn't actually stop working entirely since it's an essential service). Even with all those issues, at least here you can't slip a doctor a few hundred dollars and bribe your way past that 8 year old on chemo-therapy because you sprained your foot. They aren't a place of business. They should be one of the few bastions in democracy where the hog-nosed idea of capitalism hasn't eroded away the last bits of humanity and causes people to be "turned away" (told to die on a street corner) because the poor hospital has to remain profitable. the words "profit margin" should be as far away from places like hospitals. These are peoples lives, not "customers" that are being dealt with.

[Broni]

In Canada(And I believe in the UK), health care is free

In a whole Europe, it's free.

I can't believe, there are actually people opposed to government subsidized/owned health care.

I can't either, but I propose another bill/petition/lawsuit:
NO MORE PAY RAISES
I'll pay 10 dollars to support it. Under any circumstances I want any pay raise! Never!

[BC_Programmer]

In a whole Europe, it's free.

...

yeah, that's what I meant, pretty much, the rest of the civilized world, as you said.

I can't either, but I propose another bill/petition/lawsuit:
NO MORE PAY RAISES
I'll pay 10 dollars to support it. Under any circumstances I want any pay raise! Never!

Agree.. you'd think there would be some sort of explicit law saying they can't vote themselves higher salaries. That seems more like something that should be put to a public vote. (but of course it isn't, because such a vote would never pass). The U.S is not the only country with the "let's give ourselves raises" problems, though, to be fair; it's rather widespread.

[rthompson80819]

OMG, I hate to get involved in this thread, but I've never seen so many misstatements of fact (on both sides!) than in this thread.  So far it's mostly been, my mind is made up, don't confuse me with the facts.

Maybe we need to stick to technical subjects.

[Broni]

Just to answer a future question, which surely would be asked...
Where are we going to find all that money to cover all those expenses?

In a moment you'll know...
Not only that, but it'll also cover repairing all those freeways potholes, we have to avoid today and more.
If you're old enough, you have to remember, that 40-50 years ago US was a blooming country. Still remember only father working and covering all bills, so mom was able to stay home and make sure kids didn't become some worthless idiots?

Here is your answer: http://www.truthandpolitics.org/top-rates.php
Wealthy people were paying much higher taxes and poor people were paying much lower taxes.
Like it is in the rest of the world.
See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_of_Europe (click on an arrow below "Maximum Personal Income tax", so you can see, that in richer countries, rich people pay way more taxes, than here in US)
Everyone was happy back then and we didn't have freeways potholes.
Well, not everybody. Those with golden shower heads weren't, so things started to change.....for worse...for you and me.

[BC_Programmer]

OMG, I hate to get involved in this thread, but I've never seen so many misstatements of fact (on both sides!) than in this thread.  So far it's mostly been, my mind is made up, don't confuse me with the facts.

Maybe we need to stick to technical subjects.

please elucidate.

[Broni]

I've never seen so many misstatements of fact

If you're such a factoid person, maybe you should state FACTS, where those misstatements are 

[Broni]

I think, I should become a politician.
I just figured, that NO MORE PAY RAISES is a very brilliant idea.
If I introduce such bill and it passes, we can dismantle a whole IRS, because we won't need it anymore.
Can you imagine, how much money we can save?

According to the above bill, since you make same amount of money every year, you'll pay same tax every year. This year and 50 years from now.
No IRS needed.
Well, maybe couple of people crew.
One to open envelopes with checks.
Second to see, if Mr. Smith paid same amount of money as he did last year.
Third to bring all checks to the bank and...
Fourth one to send "Thank you" notes.
FOUR PEOPLE IRS!
Isn't it brilliant?

[rthompson80819]

First, the Obama health care plan isn't evil.  It has very good intentions.  Whether or not it fulfils it's promise has yet to be seen, but something needs to be done.  I don't have health insurance by the way.

Health care in countries like Canada and the UK are not free.  I don't understand how anybody could think it's free.  You are paying for it with your higher taxes.  If you are out of work, your neighbors are paying for it with their taxes.  It's like saying when you buy an new car the tires and brakes are free.  You are paying for all of it.

It's a lot like paying for insurance.  You might never need that $1.000.000 operation, but you neighbor might, and the cost is spread over a large population to minimize the cost to each individual.

And a lot of Eastern Europe, even if the care is free, the care is so poor that you would be better off going to a vet.

BTY, Broni, I've supported a flat tax for years.  It could easily get the IRS down to the four people you want.

[BC_Programmer]

Health care in countries like Canada and the UK are not free.  I don't understand how anybody could think it's free.  You are paying for it with your higher taxes.  If you are out of work, your neighbors are paying for it with their taxes.  It's like saying when you buy an new car the tires and brakes are free.  You are paying for all of it.

It's "free" in the sense that we pay very similar amounts of taxes, but instead of nearly half of it being put towards "defending the country" from such threats as third world nations on the other side of the globe, it's put towards things that actually benefit everybody.

And a lot of Eastern Europe, even if the care is free, the care is so poor that you would be better off going to a vet.

Didn't you just argue that it wasn't free? That being said, I have no idea what health care is like in Eastern Europe, or anywhere really besides Canada (aside from what I hear, obviously. Now if only we had somebody who used to live in, say, Poland posting here about it...

Oh wait a sec... 

[Broni]

I don't understand how anybody could think it's free.

I'm sorry, but please don't treat us like 1st graders.
Obviously, by "free", we mean, you don't have to pay DIRECTLY.
Surely, money doesn't grow on trees.

If you are out of work, your neighbors are paying for it with their taxes.

Isn't it more like a real democracy, compassion? Anything wrong with it?

And a lot of Eastern Europe

There is no more Eastern Europe per se, unless you think Russia.
All those countries are part of EU for some years now.

BTY, Broni, I've supported a flat tax for years.  It could easily get the IRS down to the four people you want.

I was rather joking, making fun of people, who want to fight to NOT to get something, which is rather ridiculous.

[Broni]

Now if only we had somebody who used to live in, say, Poland posting here about it...

It depends.
During communists time (20 years gone), the health care was totally free, but horrible.
If you had some serious problem, which needed say surgery, you had to pay a lot of money under the table, so they wouldn't kill you, or cut a wrong leg. You had to pay everyone, from a nurse to a doctor.

Since then, all forgotten and Poland is more, or less like the rest of EU. Free public health care.

[rthompson80819]

A quote from Wikpedia.

In Canada total tax and non-tax revenue for every level of government equals about 38.4% of GDP,[2] compared to the U.S. rate of 28.2%.

That more than covers the cost of health insurance.  And when I say Eastern Europe it is mostly the "stans" that have serious medical problems, in large part to civil wars.

[BC_Programmer]

A quote from Wikpedia.

That more than covers the cost of health insurance.  And when I say Eastern Europe it is mostly the "stans" that have serious medical problems, in large part to civil wars.

I agree. mostly because there aren't any countries ending in "Stan" in all of Europe. Well, unless you count kazakhstan, but I don't think that counts as "in europe" anymore then Russia does.

In Canada total tax and non-tax revenue for every level of government equals about 38.4% of GDP,[2] compared to the U.S. rate of 28.2%.

That more than covers the cost of health insurance. 

Canada's GDP: $1.600 trillion, *.384 = 614,400,000,000 in Total revenue. (HAHAHA) Canada has a population of 33,311,400. So, going by these "statistics" each Canadian paid an average of $18,441 in taxes in a year.

what is "wrong" is the fact that such taxes include corporate taxes whose rules and enforcement are hugely difference from how they are applied to the average citizen. This is true both for Canada as well as the U.S, and the rules are different in both, therefore comparing their tax revenue as if it's some concrete number that reflects how much citizens pay in taxes in each country is like comparing apples to oranges.

[Broni]

then Russia does

Off the subject, but since I'm a perfectionist (LOL), geographically, Europe ends at Ural Mountains, deep into Russia.
Now, I can rest

[rthompson80819]

mostly because there aren't any countries ending in "Stan" in all of Europe.  then Russia does.

OK, maybe that's true, maybe I should have added Croatia, Bosnia, Herzegovina, Serbia, Montenegro, Albania and Macedonia, most of which have medical problems left over from civil wars, and all of which are firmly in Europe.

Even though Russia stretches all the way to the Pacific Ocean, most Russians I've known consider them selves European.

[Broni]

They may consider themselves whatever they want. It does mean, they are 

most of which have medical problems left over from civil wars

Visited, or just heard about it?

[rthompson80819]

Never been there, never want to go there.  But I have read a number of articles and seen more pictures than I wanted to see.   And I have known a Serb that still has family there.

[Broni]

Sure, but what does it have to do with the original subject?

[rthompson80819]

Very little , but I wasn't the only one who changed the subject.  But the original subject was government run health care, and I don't think you could get closer to the subject of government run health care than talking about communist countries.

[Broni]

I don't think you could get closer to the subject of government run health care than talking about communist countries

I see no connection at all.
I lived in communist country for 32 years, so I know first hand.
Communism is nothing but an utopia, which can't exist in normal world for longer period of time.
Free public health care does exist in normal, democratic countries (UE) and there is nothing strange about it.
It works too.

What strange (maybe normal?) is the fact, that in some other countries (should I say just country? US), some people try to NOT to get, what they should be getting, if they believe, they live in normal country.
It's like voting against yourself.
Little bit paranoid, I guess.
More, I'd say, very powerful US propaganda paid for by all kind of lobbies.
For instance, private health insurance companies do everything to make people believe, that the humans don't need any free health care.
...and many people seem to not know, who's hiding behind such idiocy and they're even ready to pay 10 dollars to NOT to have free health care.

Orwell, or Kafka?
Maybe both, or more...

[Salmon Trout]

Maybe we need to stick to technical subjects.

In a way, that was my point.

[Salmon Trout]

And when I say Eastern Europe it is mostly the "stans" that have serious medical problems, in large part to civil wars.

Er, that's Asia. Is this the level of your expertise?

[grandpa_simpson]

It's a small price to pay to fight for the rights of your country, especially given that our soldiers are dying all the time, defending our freedom.

it's not a "point of view" regarding health care, it's entirely redundant. It's like saying that you think watermelons cost too much and reducing their cost is a small price for grocery stores t opay given that soldiers are dying all the time, defending your freedom, which is clearly ridiculous.

I should have worded my statement differently.  The point I was trying to get across was that United States soldiers are fighting for our freedom, and we should try do our part to help preserve that freedom. 

Regarding the debate on whether new health care infringes on that freedom (which can go on for a long time), I happen to be of the opinion that is does.  Whether the war is necessary or not, I happen to believe to an extent, or up to a certain point it was.

I don't want to agrue.  I just wanted to clarify my point.

[Salmon Trout]

I should have worded my statement differently.  The point I was trying to get across was that United States soldiers are fighting for our freedom, and we should try do our part to help preserve that freedom. 

Well, I do want to argue! You are playing with words. Or have let Fox News brainwash you. The "freedom" that the soldiers in Afghanistan are allegedly fighting to preserve is the propaganda type fake "freedom" that American right wingers invented as an excuse to wage war. The "freedom" that Obama's health care plan suposedly attacks is another type of fake idea, namely the American Right's notion of "small government" and light regulation for Wall Street and big corporations. Not equivalent. Not even genuine.

[grandpa_simpson]

You are playing with words.

Playing with words how ?   

[Salmon Trout]

Playing with words how ?   

By using the word "freedom" to mean 2 different things and then proceeding as if you had demonstrated that they meant the same thing. A politician's trick.

[grandpa_simpson]

lol    Trout, I assure you I am not trying to manipulate anyone.   I don't know politics very well, so I can't converse with you on that level too deeply, but the context I was using "freedom" in was in constitutional freedom that the country was founded on.   I did not mean it as two separate types.


edit:  It seems logical at least to me, that our individual liberties will greatly be hindered if we are not protected from international threats..


 

[Salmon Trout]

lol    Trout, I assure you I am not trying to manipulate anyone.   I don't know politics very well, so I can't converse with you on that level too deeply, but the context I was using "freedom" in was in constitutional freedom that the country was founded on.   I did not mean it as two separate types.


edit:  It seems logical at least to me, that our individual liberties will greatly be hindered if we are not protected from international threats..


 

Possibly from genuine threats, but not, I think, from nonexistent ones. Or threats (e.g. from Muslim nations) caused by a foreign policy that gives Israel a free pass to commit murder and run an apartheid state. Also, to make a coherent argument you would have to show (1) What American "freedoms" the Taliban are actually threatening and (2) that there is actually a real possibility of them doing that (occupying the US, installing a dictator, revoking the Constitution).

[grandpa_simpson]

hmm, I wasn't necessarily referring to only the Taliban.  To be more specific, if we had no protection from international threats would all of your individual liberties make you feel better ?  I think I would be scared most of the time or if I had access to recources, preoccupied with protecting my family, and have no time to enjoy individual liberties, virtually making them useless.

Could the constitution even exist without protection from international threats ?  How would we gather into councils and uphold the constitution without our military securing the country ?  If we were invaded, it seems that the constitution would become, at least temporarily void, due to the fact that some people have access to recources much more than others do and those less fortunate would be at the mercy of those who are more fortunate.  Land would be divided up and each area would be sovereign, each with it's own rules..



edit: boy, this thread really took off   

[Broni]

that gives Israel a free pass to commit murder and run an apartheid state

Wow! You must be wearing same model of "reality eyeglasses" as I do
You forgot to mention, that we actually pay for it...
"A Conservative Estimate of Total Direct U.S. Aid to Israel: Almost $114 Billion": http://wrmea.org/component/content/article/245-2008-november/3845-congress-watch-a-conservative-estimate-of-total-direct-us-aid-to-israel-almost-114-billion.html

[BC_Programmer]

if we had no protection from international threats would all of your individual liberties make you feel better ?

What are your tourists protecting by posing as Canadians overseas? Why do they need to do this? Why can't they go to certain countries and proudly show their own nation's flag?

[grandpa_simpson]

What are your tourists protecting by posing as Canadians overseas? Why do they need to do this? Why can't they go to certain countries and proudly show their own nation's flag?

I have no idea, I think I clarified for the most part however, what I meant.

[Mulreay]

Just to go back to the taxes (and where does the money come from). This may have been covered but In England (Britain) we pay 'income tax' and we pay 'NI'. NI is National Income tax. National income tax pays for our public services inc but not limited to the NHS.

The NHS or the 'National health service' is one of the greatest health services in the world. Not only do we Brits get it all for for free (except in taxes) we complain when we don't get a bed in a ward.
Americans have the luxury of given enough treatment to 'just' keep them alive, until you pay.
We Brits complain about everything but we still have the template that every health service in the world should follow and the people want.

[Salmon Trout]

NI is National Income tax. National income tax pays for our public services inc but not limited to the NHS.

Your heart is in the right place about the value of the NHS but just a little thing - When you eventually start paying it, you'll see that it's called "National Insurance". In fact, income tax pays for general government expenditure and "you pay National Insurance contributions to build up your entitlement to certain social security benefits, including the State Pension." - DirectGov

[truenorth]

I am coming late to this party but i do have some knowledge on the subject from having travelled within the U.S. for over 35 years (about 12 weeks each year). From that travel i have been honoured and blessed to have made many close and valued friends (2 of them just departed my home this very morning). It has been my unfortunate experience to witness first hand the traumatic and devastating consequences of the U.S. health care system many times. I could regale this forum with countless events of loss of health,property,wealth,and other quality of life issues brought on by catastrophic health issues to U.S. citizens due to impoverishment from health related issues. Even in some instances premature avoidable death. I suggest that "United States soldiers are fighting for our freedom, and we should try do our part to help preserve that freedom." that freedom ought as a basic human right include freedom from fear of severe economic devastation and unnecessary health deterioration's brought on by inability to "pay" for adequate and timely health care treatment. Unfortunately i believe from my following of the recent health care debate and the subsequent industry lobbying that the bill passed is a long way from adequate to being able to meet the needs of the U.S. population. But for those that would rail against it you shall soon have an opportunity to reverse it in November as the party of "no" has promised they will repeal it. You might want to ask them though "what do they intend to replace it with". I have far too many dear friends in the U.S. to remain silent on this issue. If i am deemed to be sacrificing "freedom" to be concerned about their future health and economic well being then so be it. truenorth

[Broni]

For those, who can't travel and see what was described by truenorth, all it takes is to rent Michael Moore's movie "Sicko" and you'll know.