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Author Topic: PC won't boot. CPU & GPU fan spins at hyperspeed....  (Read 18788 times)

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Computer_Commando



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Re: PC won't boot. CPU & GPU fan spins at hyperspeed....
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2013, 05:44:03 PM »
1.  I would actually go with the PSU itself being at fault...EZCool aren't known for making good units at all.  The second 4 pin to fit into the 8 pin power socket is not needed to POST or for normal usage, a single 4 pin in that 8 pin socket is not a problem provided you have a good PSU.  In all honesty I am surprised that unit lasted you a year.
2.  If it was capable of providing its rated power, it would've been overkill for your setup anyway, but even the label tells us it's no good - the power available on the 12V rail is over 100W short of what the PSU is supposedly capable of.  Modern PCs draw almost all their power from the 12V rail, so most good units can actually supply all or almost all of their rated wattage on that rail.
The XFX Pro 450W is a good unit at a good price, it's my normal go-to for setups that don't draw a lot of power like yours.
1.  I mostly agree, however, there is a reason for multiple power sockets (pins).  The sockets are only rated for a certain number of amps, if you exceed it, there will be a voltage drop at the interface to the motherboard +12VDC power plane.
2.  36A on a single rail is as much as most dual rails at 18A.  It is difficult to predict what a switching power supply will do without precise measurements.  Yes, almost all power used is +12VDC & +5VDC.  Actual power regulation & delivery is done on the motherboard.  Early PC's did this in the PSU.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switched-mode_power_supply

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Re: PC won't boot. CPU & GPU fan spins at hyperspeed....
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2013, 03:09:16 AM »
1.  I mostly agree, however, there is a reason for multiple power sockets (pins).  The sockets are only rated for a certain number of amps, if you exceed it, there will be a voltage drop at the interface to the motherboard +12VDC power plane.

Correct, however a 4 to 8 pin adapter won't help as it's still pulling those amps from the same PSU connector.  Molex or PCI-E to EPS isn't bad, but again the 8 pin isn't needed unless you're exceeding the rated power of that 4 pin socket.  I believe the ATX 4 pin is rated to around 140W, which is enough for almost any CPU on the market even hitting its max TDP which isn't very common.  Of course, if you have an 8 pin connector on your PSU, which all decent/modern units do, there's no sense just plugging in the 4 pin.  So like I said, the machine should POST with the 4 pin connector.  Also, if it was working prior to this, it's pretty much impossible for it to be a connector issue, if it worked before with the PSU plugged in in the same way.

Quote
2.  36A on a single rail is as much as most dual rails at 18A.  It is difficult to predict what a switching power supply will do without precise measurements.  Yes, almost all power used is +12VDC & +5VDC.  Actual power regulation & delivery is done on the motherboard.  Early PC's did this in the PSU.

Yes, and 36A on the 12V (432W) for a supposed 550W PSU is still over 100W short of what it should provide if it was a good, modern unit, whether it provides that 36A on a single rail, 2 rails, or 6.  That PC isn't pulling anywhere near that amount of power anyway, so the issue isn't that it's underpowered on the 12V, it's that it's not a good unit.  Incidentally, the XFX 450W I suggested as a replacement offers 408W on the 12V rail, only 14W less than this supposed 550W unit.

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Re: PC won't boot. CPU & GPU fan spins at hyperspeed....
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2013, 10:45:57 AM »
...I believe the ATX 4 pin is rated to around 140W, which is enough for almost any CPU on the market even hitting its max TDP which isn't very common...
Ratings are in amps, not watts.  Molex says 14A/pin.
12VDC power & CPU TDP are not comparable items.  A 95W TDP is not consuming 8A of 12V power.
Disk drives & optical drives use 12V, too.  HDD: [email protected], [email protected]
The greater the DC current, the greater the voltage drop across interfaces, i.e. (single interface) ~0.1 ohms x 14A = 1.4V
Spec requires no greater than 5% (0.6V).  Therefore, it is not desirable to run at anywhere near the maximum.

http://www.molex.com/molex/products/family?key=standard_093&channel=products&chanName=family&pageTitle=Introduction&parentKey=power_connectors

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_design_power

OP did say:  "...I think the graphics card was on its way out (screen flickered a bit before)..."
This could be bad card or bad power.


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Re: PC won't boot. CPU & GPU fan spins at hyperspeed....
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2013, 03:36:21 AM »
I understand that the rating is in amps, however stating it in watts surely makes no difference, just divide by 12 to get the amps if you prefer.  I've not had much luck finding the exact rating for the 4 pin ATX connector, I've seen 144W mentioned (12A) and 16A mentioned too.  Do you happen to know the rated amperage for that connector by any chance?  I would be interested to know for sure.
I don't understand your statement about TDP not being comparable.  I'm not saying a 95W TDP CPU always sues 95W, that would be silly.  I'm saying the TDP is the maximum wattage the CPU is designed to consume under normal circumstances, but it's still not often, going with this example, that a 95W TDP CPU will draw 95W.  Regardless, a single 4 pin connection is enough for the CPU in question, without a shadow of a doubt - especially at POST when it's not drawing max power.

I agree that it could be a bad graphics card too, but I would also replace the power supply as soon as possible given that it's not a good quality unit.

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Re: PC won't boot. CPU & GPU fan spins at hyperspeed....
« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2013, 01:04:42 PM »
I got the ratings directly from Molex, (i.e. 14A/pin) the inventor & major manufacturer of the connector.

Stating ratings in amps is absolute, doesn't matter what the DC voltage is, up to 32VDC.  Things change at higher DC voltages & any AC voltage.
Stating in watts is relative, because both volts & amps must be known.
For example: the standard Molex-type power connector with +5VDC & +12VDC & 2 Power Returns (incorrectly referred to as Grounds).  The 5V pin would have a 70W rating and the 12V would have a 168W rating, but they are the same exact pin.  Stating in Amps, the voltage is irrelevant (up to a point).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"...The thermal design power (TDP)..., refers to the maximum amount of power the cooling system in a computer is required to dissipate. The TDP is typically not the most power the chip could ever draw..."

The terms power and energy are frequently confused. Power is the rate at which energy is generated or consumed and hence is measured in units (e.g. watts) that represent 'energy per unit time'.

TDP is a measure of heat dissipation, not electrical consumption.  In a 100% resistive circuit, they would be equal.  In this case, you could measure the heat rise in BTU/sec or calories/sec & convert to watts.  Your electrical space heater or electrical water heater are examples.  Transistor circuit are not 100% resistive; so, this is not the case, here.

The dynamic power consumed by a switching circuit is approximately proportional to the square of the voltage:
    P = C V^2 f
(where C is capacitance, f is frequency and V is voltage).

The cpu does not use 12VDC directly, there are voltage converters external & internal to the cpu.  Based on all this, you can't just divide TDP by 12 to get amps consumed.
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The CPU may not need the 4-pin connector at all, for minimal loading.  You still have the 24-pin mobo connector supplying 12V.  As motherboards required more power, this was not enough, so they added the 4-pin, then the 6-pin & 8-pin.

As for the 4-pin connector, assume it can supply 28A to the motherboard.  How the motherboard supplies this to the components is an entirely different matter.  You cannot pump 28A in by way of a single point, so they have 2.  A margin of safety might be half, so in reality, 7A/pin.  100% (14A) does not go to the cpu.

Power (Voltage & current) is supplied to the PCB (Printed Circuit Board) power planes (copper layers inside the PCB).  Power exits the plane by the way of vias (the little tiny holes) to the surface on which the component is soldered or in the case of a thru-hole component, inside the PCB.  Amps are limited by the size of vias & thru holes & thickness of copper, which require multiple connection points for something like a PCI-e connector or the 3-terminal devices (regulators) supplying power to the CPU. You can see the amount of connections points to the CPU by looking at all the electrolytic capacitors.  I cannot assume that all the +12V within the power plane is tied together, some manufacturers may use multiple isolated +12V power planes.  This would be a reason for some motherboards functioning with the connector attached and others will not function at all.

By supplying multiple voltage connection points, you insure minimum voltage drop across those points without the use of voltage sensing techniques which would increase the cost of the psu.  And it's not provided for in the Standard.
Multiple power planes insures that the motherboard gets all the power it needs for all the cards that get plugged in and any cpu installed.  It won't work at all without all the required power plugs attached.
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In the OP's case, it may have been borderline for a long time & a condition was finally reached which pushed it over the edge & something degraded or failed.  The adapter cable is cheap & more of a Science Experiment than a permanent solution; it's possible that it will correct all.  What I don't understand, is why the expensive motherboard with cheap peripherals?  Graphics cards aren't that expensive.  The PSU is just the wrong one, a correct one is in order.


MistaShiv

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    Re: PC won't boot. CPU & GPU fan spins at hyperspeed....
    « Reply #20 on: October 10, 2013, 02:50:55 PM »
    Thanks for the posts, I'm very grateful for your patience in helping me. I've learnt a lot.


    I missed 2 parcels today, which I'm assuming is the new graphics card and the 4 pin to 8pin psu adapter.

    I'll collect them first thing tomorrow morning, and when they're installed I'll give some feedback.



    I've had a look at that XFX Pro PSU, it seems decent and is within my price range. Will it work with my set up? What specs do I need from a PSU (certain type of motherboard connection? A certain type of power output?) I literally have no idea of my requirements are.



    Computer_Commando



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    Re: PC won't boot. CPU & GPU fan spins at hyperspeed....
    « Reply #21 on: October 10, 2013, 05:48:27 PM »
    Google power supply calculator
    There are many different XFX Pro PSU's.  Don't know which one he was referring to.
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Dcomputers&field-keywords=XFX%20Pro

    This is the graphics card you are waiting for?
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gigabyte-GeForce-GT630-Graphics-PCI-E/dp/B00842KHO0

    There's usually a spec on it for amps required by the board.

    Gigabyte says:
    System power supply requirement: 350W
    http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=4217#sp

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    Re: PC won't boot. CPU & GPU fan spins at hyperspeed....
    « Reply #22 on: October 11, 2013, 01:57:49 AM »
    The 630 is a low end card, it doesn't require much power.
    I was referring to the entire series of XFX Pro units, as any of them will suffice.  I would go for the 450W as it supplies more than enough power for this system.  The 550W or 650W would provide plenty of headroom for future expansion with a beefy graphics card or two if desired, although the 450W still leaves headroom for adding a midrange card later on.

    MistaShiv

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      Re: PC won't boot. CPU & GPU fan spins at hyperspeed....
      « Reply #23 on: October 11, 2013, 02:54:18 AM »
      So will the XFX have all the output connections to power up my optical drive e.t.c? I'm not sure what the standard is, don't want to buy a psu for it to not be compatible with my hardware


      I've just inserted the graphics card, it does appear to post however on the screen it says

      "Reboot and Select Proper boot device"

      Could this be caused by me resetting the CMOS as well as re inserting it?

      Or perhaps because I took the hard drive out? I've put it back in but its possible its connected to a different sata input on the motherboard

      EDIT:

      I forgot to connect the hard drive to the PSU, I've just done it and windows is launching start up repair, I think this is it guys!


      Please let me know about the XFX being compatible for my set up, I can list the components that I have if required.

      I think I will still change the PSU, even though the computer is booting.


      Thanks
      « Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 03:06:14 AM by MistaShiv »

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      Re: PC won't boot. CPU & GPU fan spins at hyperspeed....
      « Reply #24 on: October 11, 2013, 03:17:35 AM »
      The XFX is compatible, yes.  You can usually check the power connector's on the manufacturer's website, if you need to in future.
      http://products.xfxforce.com/en-gb/Power_Supplies/Pro_Series_450W_PSU/P1-450S-X2B9
      So it has 3 Molex connectors, 6 SATA connectors, a 24 pin for the motherboard, a 4+4 pin for the motherboard, a 6+2 pin for a graphics card, and a floppy connector.
      The higher wattage versions will have more connectors, that's the 450W.

      MistaShiv

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        Re: PC won't boot. CPU & GPU fan spins at hyperspeed....
        « Reply #25 on: October 11, 2013, 03:43:28 AM »
        Ok that's great. I was worried that my original EZCool piece of crap might use older connections for my optical drive and hdd, and that this newer psu might be using a newer standard.

        Thanks for clearing that up, I'll get one ordered.



        Is there anyway I can donate some money to the running of this site? You've undoubtedly saved me at least £50, I'd like to give a small percentage of it back

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        Re: PC won't boot. CPU & GPU fan spins at hyperspeed....
        « Reply #26 on: October 11, 2013, 03:49:19 AM »
        The power connector depends on the device, not the PSU.  Most PSUs will have the older Molex connectors, for IDE DVD drives and HDDs and some other things, along with SATA connectors for the more modern (2006+) SATA DVD drives and HDDs.  So, whichever you have, this unit has the right connector.

        The site owner generally encourages other ways of helping Computer Hope than donation - but have a look at the below links :)
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        Just posting your question on the forum, getting a satisfactory result - glad you got it sorted by the way - and most of all, posting back to let us know it's fixed, is a great contribution to the site.

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        Re: PC won't boot. CPU & GPU fan spins at hyperspeed....
        « Reply #27 on: October 11, 2013, 11:54:01 AM »
        Did you install both the new graphics card & the new 8-pin connector?
        Would be interested to know if the culprit was the old graphics card or only having the 4-pin connector.

        If it all works now, no reason to buy a new psu at this time, but it's always good to have a spare around.

        ...Is there anyway I can donate some money to the running of this site? You've undoubtedly saved me at least £50, I'd like to give a small percentage of it back...
        Just our way of "Paying it Forward".

        MistaShiv

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          Re: PC won't boot. CPU & GPU fan spins at hyperspeed....
          « Reply #28 on: October 12, 2013, 06:45:21 AM »
          The adapter hasn't even come yet, the second package was something else.


          The new graphics card seems to have fixed the issue.

          I ordered that PSU anyway, it was only £36 delivered, and if my current PSU is crap I don't want to risk it damaging any other components etc

          I have another question though,

          Whenever I drain the power out of the PC, (turn it off via front power button, flick the PSU switch at the back, press the front button again to drain any remaining current)


          Should I be getting this screen, when I reboot?


          https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/72321363/IMAG0034.jpg


          I figured it was something to do with the CMOS, so I changed the battery with a new one, reset it, rebooted the PC and it hasnt appeared to change anything.


          Interestingly, when I press F2, and correct the date and time, followed by f10 to save and exit, the pc restarts itself and loads up windows as normal.

          Its only when I drain the PC (im guessing, leaving the pc turned off for an hour will have the same effect), that it seems to "reset" itself


          « Last Edit: October 12, 2013, 06:57:34 AM by MistaShiv »

          Computer_Commando



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          Re: PC won't boot. CPU & GPU fan spins at hyperspeed....
          « Reply #29 on: October 12, 2013, 10:59:19 AM »
          It likely was the CMOS battery, which you changed.
          Now you must enter Setup.
          1st page will have the date & time to change.
          Now settings must be saved, it will say F10 to Save & Exit.
          The battery is what keeps all the setting saved.
          Windows will also set the time & date if connected to the internet & there are apps that do the same.  I use Webtime because I can tell immediately if internet connection is alive.
          http://www.gregorybraun.com/WebTime.html
          Well, what do you know?  New version!

          By turning off the power with the psu switch, the battery is what keeps the settings alive.
          With the psu switch "on", there is always power to the motherboard.  Putting everything on a power strip does the same.  I do this, so I can turn off everything, including the monitors, speakers, powered hubs, etc.

          The front power button does not activate the mains power directly.  Somewhat like your TV:  The remote control wouldn't function if the TV were fully off, as in pulling the power plug.  TV has no battery.