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Author Topic: The Definitive Best Anti-Virus Thread  (Read 8612 times)

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Allan

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The Definitive Best Anti-Virus Thread
« on: February 09, 2010, 08:31:31 AM »
On many support forums there are "stickies" or "pinned topics" with the title: "The Definitive Best ...... Thread" (the specific subject may be Anti Virus Software, Firewalls, Free Software, etc). I've suggested that CH do the same, at least for AV's, but to date it hasn't happened - so I thought I'd take the liberty of starting such a thread. If staff chooses to "pin it", all the better. Anyway, the following is a cut and paste of the first post from the sticky at my forum and I hope it goes over well here:



Okay, this question just comes up so often that I, for one, am tired of seeing it  ;D .

So everyone who wants to give his or her opinion please do so here. Let's not argue about anything or question anyone else's choice, let's just state our preferences so those who want to read differing opinions can do so here. If you have very strong feelings about other programs (good or bad) go ahead and express them. Then when the question comes up in the future we can just point to this thread. One post per person should probably suffice (okay, wishful thinking [Wink] ).

I'll start. I like Kaspersky Anti Virus. I've been using it for about 5 years. All new versions are free as long as you maintain your yearly license. Definitions are updated several times a day. It's always active and I also use it to scan incoming email. Of course I also use a couple of spyware prevention utilities in conjunction with the AV (MalwareyBytes & SpywareBlaster - neither remains resident), but that's another topic. I can honestly say I've never had a virus on any system - and I started using PC's in 1985.

I'm sure there are a few good free AV's, but I personally cannot recommend any. I simply feel that anti virus protection is the single most important app you can have on your system and I'm a firm believer that you get what you pay for. I would never consider skimping on AV software. If you can afford $50 for the latest computer game you can certainly afford $30/year to protect your system.

It should go without saying that the most important preventative is "smart computing" (never open an email attachment unless you are 100% certain you know what it is, don't click on links unless you KNOW where they go, avoid all forms of pirated sw and warez, etc.).

« Last Edit: February 09, 2010, 09:52:45 AM by patio »

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Re: The Definitive Best Anti-Virus Thread
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2010, 09:33:36 AM »
I'm sure there are a few good free AV's, but I personally cannot recommend any.
I believe numerous good  free AV's are available for home/personal use.  I've been using AVG on my Win XP system for several years and I have Avast installed on a computer running Win 7 RC.  I now think I like Avast better than AVG but I still believe AVG is a fairly good product.

Ones I have not used but have positive impressions based on reviews or forum comments include Avira, Comodo, and the relatively new product from Microsoft, Microsoft Security Essentials.  So, I believe the home user has numerous good free options.

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Re: The Definitive Best Anti-Virus Thread
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2010, 06:10:48 PM »
Perhaps this topic is best submitted as a FAQ for inclusion in the FAQ\Security forum?

http://www.computerhope.com/forum/index.php/board,26.0.html

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Re: The Definitive Best Anti-Virus Thread
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2010, 01:42:04 AM »
This question is hard to answer since it's often based off past experience, and I'd imagine that pretty much everyone hasn't tried every anti-virus out there. I even make it a point to often switch between anti-virus programs every few months and I haven't even tried every one out there. Which is why I suggest users base their recommendation off of a site or person who's gone through the testing of each of the programs such as AV-Comparitives or other similar testing services.

This is also brought up in the below Computer Hope document.

http://www.computerhope.com/issues/ch000514.htm

I'll leave this thread in this board for a few days allowing anyone who wants to provide additional input to do so and then move it into the FAQ section so it can be easily referred to in the future.
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Re: The Definitive Best Anti-Virus Thread
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2010, 04:59:21 PM »
AVAST 5 is nice, they finally changed the interface / GUI and the scanning definitely seems to be using less resources than the previous version.

Also, you don't need to visit their website anymore to register the product, which is nice, just have to register within the software itself.

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Re: The Definitive Best Anti-Virus Thread
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2010, 12:20:10 PM »
Although this may create more questions than answers I feel compelled to jump into this post. And, forgive my rattling on but I too am looking for the "best" anti-virus program.
I'm wondering if there is a/any anti-virus program/s that could have prevented what I'm about to describe? I must also state that I have absolutely nothing against either of the two anti-virus programs that I'm about to mention. Recently I experienced a particular virus on two different PC's. In the interest of keeping this long message as short as I can, I won't go into the virus particulars.
Anyway, this particular virus infects the PC by (you guessed it) opening an attachment or I find now (and this baffles me)attempting to open an attachment.. Note; Please don't say don't open any attachments if you don't know where they come from. For reasons that I will not go into here, this was not an option at the time. The first PC (OS- XP) was protected by Avast Free Edition 4.8. (since upgraded to version 5) and Windows Firewall (now using PC Tools Firewall Plus). When the attachment was opened Avast recognized the virus immediately and(all hel- broke loose, including sirens etc.etc.) The file was immediately deleted (at that point was told that it was deleted) but obviously not completely, because the PC was infected.

The second PC (OS- Vista)was protected by AVG 9 free addition(since upgraded to paid version) and Windows Firewall (now using PC Tools Firewall Plus).  In this case the attachment would not open??. But because of the problem with the first PC I decided to have this PC checked too. I'm sure that you're now wondering if it was opened once why would anyone try again?. Trust me there was a reason. Well, both PC's are clean now(thanks DragonMaster Jay) but what I'm still very much wondering is; once that attachment was opened or attempted to be opened do you suppose there are any anti-virus programs out there that could have, would have, prevented this virus from getting into these systems?


Thanks for reading.


             

patio

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Re: The Definitive Best Anti-Virus Thread
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2010, 03:38:11 PM »
Since the infection was likely a trojan and/or rootkit the short answer would be...NO.
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Re: The Definitive Best Anti-Virus Thread
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2010, 03:48:13 PM »
I refuse to participate in these topics. ;D O0 ;D



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patio

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Re: The Definitive Best Anti-Virus Thread
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2010, 04:07:07 PM »
Neil Peart is one of the Best !
" Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined. "

Allan

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Re: The Definitive Best Anti-Virus Thread
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2010, 04:20:42 PM »
You know, this is the first forum I've seen where a thread like this doesn't work.

kpac

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Re: The Definitive Best Anti-Virus Thread
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2010, 04:32:36 PM »
You know, this is the first forum I've seen where a thread like this doesn't work.
That's good! We're original.....

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Re: The Definitive Best Anti-Virus Thread
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2010, 08:29:25 PM »
Not to mention there have already been enough "what's the best Antivirus?" type threads that we'd need to take off our socks and shoes to count them.
I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

Allan

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Re: The Definitive Best Anti-Virus Thread
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2010, 05:53:15 AM »
Not to mention there have already been enough "what's the best Antivirus?" type threads that we'd need to take off our socks and shoes to count them.
Precisely. Threads like this are intended to be pinned and pointed to when those questions arise. When someone posts: http://www.computerhope.com/forum/index.php/topic,100232.new.html#new

you are supposed to just be able to respond with a link to the pinned response.

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Re: The Definitive Best Anti-Virus Thread
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2010, 06:42:44 PM »
I am a happy AVAST user.

agree with the admin that its highly based past experiences, for me after failing in almost every free antivirus I end up using avast which is now my favorite.

:)

Allan

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Re: The Definitive Best Anti-Virus Thread
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2010, 07:27:35 AM »
Here's the way this thread is supposed to work. And at the very least, now if we point people to this thread they will have sources to which they can go for intelligent responses.


http://tweaks.com/forum/Topic11221-3-1.aspx

http://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/861052-definitive-best-antivirus-2010/

http://forum.lowyat.net/topic/1280484

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Re: The Definitive Best Anti-Virus Thread
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2010, 07:47:27 PM »
I had no idea that Neil Pert wrote the lyrics for Rush. I just always thought that he was an awesome drummer. For some reason I had always assumed that Geddy wrote most of the songs.
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Re: The Definitive Best Anti-Virus Thread
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2010, 08:17:31 PM »
I'm sure there are a few good free AV's, but I personally cannot recommend any. I simply feel that anti virus protection is the single most important app you can have on your system and I'm a firm believer that you get what you pay for. I would never consider skimping on AV software. If you can afford $50 for the latest computer game you can certainly afford $30/year to protect your system.
Complete opposite for me.  I can't recommend licensed programs when there are free alternatives available that are just as good, sometimes better.  Money doesn't make a program any better; all you are paying for is the support or a couple of extra features.  You're not paying for a more inclusive database.

Also, there is no such thing as the "best" anti-virus.  They all do something different and every anti-virus has infections it misses that another would be able to find.  I don't have a big handful of different programs just for the novelty of it; I have them because a backup is necessary, regardless of which scanner you use.  Therefore, the "best" is a matter of which program has certain features you like or which one has an interface that fits your style.  That's why when somebody wants to know which program they should use, I prefer to direct them to a list and tell them to pick one.
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Re: The Definitive Best Anti-Virus Thread
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2010, 10:05:33 PM »
I'd just use one that has a decent detection rate, updates every day and you're comfortable with.

There is no 100% failproof AV out there.

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Re: The Definitive Best Anti-Virus Thread
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2010, 10:30:39 PM »
Quote
Money doesn't make a program any better; all you are paying for is the support or a couple of extra features.  You're not paying for a more inclusive database.

Additionally, if somebody needed that whole "you get what you pay for" feeling, most Free AVs also have paid versions. Of course, the only difference between the paid and free versions is the support and a couple extra features, for the most part.


The very reason I don't use an AV solution myself is simply because of the very "reverse pigeonhole principle" that you've described; they all do something different, and there is always something that will get through- for those "holes" the best defense is simply a knowledgeable user. The only way to be truly protected would be to have multiple Anti-Virus products installed, whereby one AV's "Pigeonhole" is covered by another, and vice versa. This of course doesn't work, since the AV products simply stomp on each other for everything else.


I might also point out that the very premise of AV comparing is somewhat flawed- all it tests is the AV vendors ability to update their virus database as well as the flexibility of that database to describe new viruses; the fact is, once a virus is detected by most major AV products, it's no longer a "threat". The reason any virus becomes prevalent is simply because the AV products don't detect it.

an AV program works rather simply- wether it is "on-demand" (in the now prevalent sense of the word meaning the user is starting it, rather then the traditional sense where it is run when there is a demand for scanning (ie. opening a file), but I digress) or in the background, an AV scans a file in a rather simple manner.

First, of course, it opens the file. Now, this is where a problem can already arise. What if another process has it open? What about security restrictions? I'm sure we've all been encountered with the "the file is in use" dialogs when deleting or moving a file. Even with the most basic of settings, such as simply reading the file, a virus can easily mess about with the ACL of a file it creates to prevent anybody from reading the file at all, but still allowing the file to be executing, thereby nullifying the whole goal of the AV product.

Of course, now most AV's have a kernel mode driver that forces a "dismount" of sorts on the file- that is, closing every open handle to the file. The problem here is of course two-fold, first, it doesn't actually change the ACL of the file- if the ACL was set to Read and no execute, then the AV still will not be able to read it, and second, it can cause difficult to diagnose errors in other applications when their files handles are suddenly invalid.

Now, in order to combat the first issue, AV products often place their detection logic in kernel mode, where it has complete access to anything, including the ability to change file permissions (I think it can be done in user-mode, too, but I'm not sure), either way, a lot of AVs have their detection logic in kernel mode.

Now, this appears to solve the problem, but really, it introduces a far larger, and more malevolent one. Recall of course that a AV program scans files by essentially reading the file and comparing it using various heuristics to the signatures in it's database. This is sensible. However, when running in kernel mode- any crash will give the user a blue-screen- and since the AV is dealing with potentially malevolent code in the form of data, a virus writer could use all sorts of tricks to force the AV to crash for any number of reasons.

On the other hand, what crashes one AV will probably not crash another- therefore the whole "reverse pigeonhole" concept rears it's head once again. In fact, it is this very principle that makes AVs as effective as they are; a malware writer is not going to, for example, write pages of extra code just to circumvent detection on some rather unpopular virus program- it's not worth the effort.

The main problem with the very concept of software based malware detection is just that- it's software based. Software is of course designed to make well-defined tasks easier, but defining what is and is not malware is a very difficult thing to do. Consider for a moment what would happen if our standard court judges were replaced by software of some form, and you have an idea what I mean. Basically, it's a problem set that is only partially incalcable. No AV product can filter out the "criminal" code from the not-guilty, for the same reasons a software based implementation of a judge or jury wouldn't work- it's a defined ruleset.

a Jury/Judge obviously runs through the same sort of logic when faced with deciding wether an alleged criminal is guilty, or innocent of a crime. however, it's important to note that when dealing with the "big time" offenses, the decision is not made by a single person, but by a group of people- in a sense, a group of "criminal detectors" whose various life experiences and intelligence combine to, ideally, properly determine the guilt or non-guilt of an offender.

Perhaps an "ideal AV" would follow the same set of rules- rather then using a single set of rules and hueristics, run the possibly malicious code through a number of tests by various companies. Of course, this implementation has a number of huge problems which are why it hasn't been implemented in the first place. The first issue is of course Company co-operation- why put in for a slice of pizza when you can go for the whole box? Another, and perhaps even more derisive issue with this method is simply the time it would take to do so- jurors, for example, are often coming to a verdict for days, and in some cases will even get hung, at which point it might become a ranking system for an AV system of the same form- which brings us right back to AV rankings and where we started to begin with. Additionally, with on-demand scanning, even with the additional speed of a computer a "judgement" will not be made in a reasonable amount of time.

Which brings us to the real reason AV programs are not as effective as could be- it's simple- Performance. It has been noted on several occasions that the later versions of an Anti-Virus are often more "bloated" and "slower" then previous versions. UI changes aside, this is often the case for good reason. As the par for the course of Computer hardware moves up, the speed with which a AV has to work with does as well. most AV vendors take advantage of this extra speed- often unwittingly, as their application may simply not be tested on older hardware at all).

The fact is, a "perfect AV" is not something that can ever exist. And even the term "definitive best" is rather uncongenial; I mean, the very fact is a metric cannot be suitably established to determine with any amount of granularity when one AV is better then another- if one AV has a bigger database, for example, it's rather meaningless for several reasons- for example, many AV databases include signatures for all sorts of ancient and long annihalated Viruses like "Stoned" and "Michelangelo" this analogous to innoculating children, not for diseases they can get, but rather things like Smallpox or Polio or the Black Death or Cholera; which, while not completely eradicated, can generally be easily treated if contracted (or in some cases, the antibodies are given to them by their mothers anyway). So, while the one AV A has a larger database then AV B, AV B having a "innoculation" for the latest "supervirus" is going to do a whole lot more for them then having "innoculations" for otherwise eliminated viruses.


Adding to the confusion is of course the concept of hueristic detection- since all AVs use a different algorithm, they can of course come up with widely varying "diagnoses" on any number of infected (or even benign or nonexistent) viruses. Add to this the fact that analyzing code paths and branches and trying to use this determine wether a file is "good" or "bad" on a boolean scale is rather optimistic; any number of applications, for example, access Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Run and related keys, and yet there was a time where all applications accessing this key were labelled as keyloggers- the rule was apparently that any file containing that string was malware, and additionally a very specific form of malware that amounts to nothing more then a shot in the dark. (this was Mcaffee some number of years ago, btw). To make things worse the fix was simple- I simply reversed the string. if I can reverse a string and turn a evil keylogger into a harmless program according to an otherwise popular AV program then the malware writers who create the very thing the detection is supposed to find can do so as well, creating an essentially useless database entry that only serves to add to their little spikey bubble on the their product box/advertisements <<DETECTS OVER XXXXX VIRUSES!>>.

returning back to the main issue of AV detection- speed.

Now, from what I can tell- the rules of AV detection are pretty much this- you can either have speed or you can have accuracy. I'm sure with 24 hours to think about it an AV heuristic algorithm could determine with nearly 100% certainty wether a given file is a virus, even for those sneaky viruses that haven't been discovered. but people want to use their computer, not watch the hourglass for hours after every file access, so AV vendors have to compromise.

In all honestly, I think many of them have done a bloody fine job of compromise; there is of course a performance hit on every file access, simply because there is extra code running, but the AV vendors have largely made it something that is short enough that it isn't even noticable, which is rather amazing. Now, if course, it is because of this need for speed that any AV program has holes. It's not because they <can't> detect every possible piece of code, it's because they can't do it in a reasonable time frame and with 100% certainty that makes using them almost like playing a game of pinata without a pinata. Eventually you realize there isn't one and get pissed off at your friends. What I mean is, it's only a matter of time before a virus slips by- and at that point who do you blame?

The very reason I don't use an AV is simply because it gives you a false sense of total security; you think, well, there's only this little tiny hole in my shield... but meh, nobody has a sword small enough to fit through. The problem is of course that you are eventually going to fit somebody using a foil and then you're screwed. This "eventually" factor is also important. a user who uses their PC maybe an hour a day is far less likely to meet the virus with a foil then the user who doesn't, in the same way a person who downloads a good number of files is far more likely to install a trojan by accident then somebody who only looks at recipes online.

Lastly- it doesn't matter HOW effective an AV is if the user doesn't care. a user, regardless of their AV, needs to be informed of some basic "rules of the internet" you cannot just slap on some so-called "definitive best AV" and assume they wil lbe fine- they need to have some basic education. So- any "definitive best" AV will have as part of it the user- and since the user is part of the formula, the variable that results when you solve the "equation" may bring out a different AV as the "best" for different people.

Myself- when I want to judge a User interface blindly- I just imagine my mother using it. Now, some of you may be under the impression that my mother is probably some sort of Cobol goddess or something. The truth is, in fact, that she can't even use a mouse... (actually, wait, that would fit the Cobol Goddess theme.. .*censored*). Anyway- she fits the profile of a total newbie to computers and the internet in general. For example, Firefox is not firefox, but rather her "facepage" and of course she cannot and will not connect her camera to any computer, because the moment you connect it to a PC every single picture is put onto a web page (regardless of what I, somebody who knows what they are talking about for the most part, says).

Since the User is such a critical component of the equation, it's important to factor in the User interface of the Anti-Virus solution that they are coupled with. In my experience, AV programs often make "alerts" regarding viruses scary and full of technical jargon, often with cute little pictures of viruses.

They do this when the program updates as well. when my Mother was using my brothers computer, the AV updated; and displayed it's little "update" dialog. the dialog included the VERY SAME "scary" virus image (this was ages ago, with AVG) that is shown when a virus was detected. She was terrified that she somehow got a virus onto his computer or something. Not to mention the very hopelessness the image sent- she was even saying "I hope I didn't infect it, we can't afford to buy him another one" and other such talk. While one can simply say this is simply user newness to the entire computer scene, it's important to realize that AV programs are not simply marketed to the technical elite, they are also marketed towards people who have never used computers before and therefore really have no idea what an Anti-virus program does or how it works- all they know is that they "need" one because everybody says they do.

This isn't to say that they don't, of course. Really, I'm pointing out that simply saying for them to use "X program" as their AV solution is more software evangelism then it is a proper recommendation, simply on the grounds that the AV and the user are both part of the package; they need to work together. if the user is scared of the user interface presented, they may simply click the "X" button (which, in the case of that version of AVG, was for some reason mapped to "ignore") so even though AVG was detecting the viruses, nothing was being done to them simply because of the user.

To summarize- the user is part of the AV, in a sense that without a well-informed user, a AV simply may not be able to do it's job of eliminating and preventing virus infections. It is pertinent to educate users about viruses, and malware in general as well as how an AV works in order for it to be fully effective.

And yes, there are a number of users who could care less about how a PC works, or whatever, and consider it a tool. Well I think they're full of it.

First off, not all tools are intuitive. you don't grab a belt sander and instantly know how to use it and the various types of sandpaper and their ideal uses- you learn those things. Even a simple hammer has a learning curve where you gradually reduce the frequency of a smashed thumb. The people who think that a "tool" shouldn't require any sort of education are the same people who think they can dry off their cat's in the microwave.
I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

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Re: The Definitive Best Anti-Virus Thread
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2010, 11:02:40 PM »
Hello, BC;
That was a good one. You've covered all the main areas and all the main flaws of the whole anti-virus concept.
So then, if we were to define perfect as being 100% effective, or even downgraded to being 99% effective, we must conclude there is no perfect AV. And if there is, they have not let the world know about it yet.
So then, the question remains - 'W what is the ideal solution to this wide spread problem?'  The obvious answer is to use a communication system that is not subject to virus attacks. That would mean having a communication system that does not allow the message to modify any device that receives the message. Is that possible? Maybe it's not possible with a software based system. Perhaps it would have to be a strict hardware only system that never is modified during its lifetime.
However, that would not be the end of our problems. Oftentimes the purpose of these Mal-ware attacks is to persuade us to spend money on something we do not need. Or in some other way create a fraud by means of a software attack. Well, fraud, deception and dishonest gain were here long before the Internet and long before software came to exist. So then, even a 'perfect' solution would not really work at all.
As you well put it, the best protection is the knowledge, skill and understanding of the user. We have to use our wits at all times to protect ourselves and our loved ones from those hard, cruel and vicious  creatures that are sometimes called humans, but  are, in effect, sons of  Satan.

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Re: The Definitive Best Anti-Virus Thread
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2010, 11:31:20 PM »
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So then, the question remains - 'W what is the ideal solution to this wide spread problem?'  The obvious answer is to use a communication system that is not subject to virus attacks. That would mean having a communication system that does not allow the message to modify any device that receives the message. Is that possible? Maybe it's not possible with a software based system.

I think changing the communication system would be just as difficult; the main way people get infected is through otherwise legitimately requested downloads that contain trojans. In the same fashion, we cannot blame the post office if somebody sends us hate mail or a letterbomb or something- they were just doing their job-  the same job that will be performed by any communication protocol chosen for internet communication- to deliver the message. It is not necessarily the underlying architecture that needs to be changed, it is the social and economic conditions that make using such architecture to perform illegal activities so appealing and/or profitable that needs to be changed- and the reality is that isn't going to happen soon. In effect, a "AV" is really analogous to a device that one can use to scan their snail mail for "malicious" stuff, like bombs. Of course anybody can recognize a dynamite shaped envelope that makes a distinct ticking noise, but not everybody is a bomb expert, in the same fashion that not everybody can detect the signs of a malware infection or an attempt at such infection.

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Perhaps it would have to be a strict hardware only system that never is modified during its lifetime.

This is reasonable at first glance, but has implications that it would essentially set us back quite a number of years; additionally, the costs of converting what we use into hardware components has additional costs that would simply make it uneconomical; if, for example, Windows was distributed via a "plugin" chip; how would security updates be performed? It opens up quite another can of worms; sure, the chip can be flashed, but then again, anything could flash it- an otherwise harmless bit of data could trick the OS (via the flaw) into running it as a program and then flash itself into the ROM, making itself a otherwise permanent resident of the hardware device. Of course such issues can be partly averted with a "actual" ROM chip solution, but in such a case updates will be relegated to the area of expertise involved with swapping out actual components.

No, the very power that is given to us by the Computer comes from it's programmability via software; remove that, and your left with a lump of silicon, gallium, and traces gold.

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However, that would not be the end of our problems. Oftentimes the purpose of these Mal-ware attacks is to persuade us to spend money on something we do not need. Or in some other way create a fraud by means of a software attack. Well, fraud, deception and dishonest gain were here long before the Internet and long before software came to exist. So then, even a 'perfect' solution would not really work at all.
Yes, exactly- and that is partly what I was driving at with my numerous real-world analogies (my favourite being the shield and foil one). Snake Oil salesmen and various other ill-meaning people will use whatever medium they can to deliver their message; it is simply the nature of e-mails fast delivery and cheapness that makes it such an economical option for them. Whatever the case- the cure is as simple as it was when they were pitching their wares on soapboxes; ignore them. Once you respond to them- in the case of the real-world salesman, you are opening yourself up to an exchange of dialogue that may convince others that the product is genuine, or even yourself. I nteh case of spam, you are simply exposing your address as "live".

The sad part is that while Common sense could, in most cases, decry the traditional Snake Oil Salesman, the fact is that nowadays Common sense is one of the most uncommon forms of sense; and the fact that they can deliver their message to thousands, even millions of recipients in the time it would take them to give a single salesman spiel on a soapbox is one of the reasons it has become so lucrative.

In many ways, AV products (I should say, Anti-spam products )are a sort of "anti-snake-oil snakeoil" that just, by chance, happens to work some of the time.


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As you well put it, the best protection is the knowledge, skill and understanding of the user. We have to use our wits at all times to protect ourselves and our loved ones from those hard, cruel and vicious  creatures that are sometimes called humans, but  are, in effect, sons of  Satan.

For some reason, this reminds me of one of my earliest "infections". I was trying to write a sorta virus; just to see how it's done (no intention of release). I only really worked on it for a few days, compiled it, and forgot about it, having quickly passed through my "I'm a leet haxor" phase.

a year later, I was investigating task manager... when, lo and behold, I saw that my little program which did absolutely nothing was running. I checked my thumb drives. it had "infected" all of them. It had infected the computers in my schools library that I had used, as well- and had spread to other computers from that point on as well, as students used their thumb drives and were subsequently "infected" and took their drives home.... I really don't want to imagine how far this went.

It was a completely harmless program that sat in the background and did absolutely nothing, except copy itself to any drive that it detected being plugged in. My biggest curiousity is how the heck it "escaped"... I didn't actually run the program after my initial playing about with it. It was rather enlightening to see just how simple the creation of self-replicating software is. I'm also quite glad that the compiled version I had there had the "WORM" define set to false... otherwise it would have copied itself throughout all the network drives and so forth. The Computers at the school were reghosted every year, so it was gone rather quickly. However sometimes I wonder how far it got...
I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

JJ 3000



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Re: The Definitive Best Anti-Virus Thread
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2010, 12:01:48 AM »
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We have to use our wits at all times to protect ourselves and our loved ones from those hard, cruel and vicious  creatures that are sometimes called humans, but  are, in effect, sons of  Satan.

Wow!
You make it sound like we're in Nazi Germany or something.

I feel like hiding my computer in an attic and making it keep a diary.
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Re: The Definitive Best Anti-Virus Thread
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2010, 12:12:41 AM »
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Wow!
You make it sound like we're in Nazi Germany or something.

I feel like hiding my computer in an attic and making it keep a diary.
THAT can be arranged  ;D

PowerBook:

The logfile of a notebook computer.


telling the tale of an Apple computer being hidden away from the hands of Microsoft as it annexes country after country.

05/23/2067: updated SimpleText to latest version. Declined offer to tell the fourth Reich where I am.

05/24/2067: crap. Simpletext won't start now, because I have to update OSX now. Where the heck am I going to buy a copy? the black market?

05/25/2067: went to the black market in my Microsoft suit disguise. Nobody was any the wiser. Went to the black market, bought a copy of OSX 15.6.2, "Silly Hippo". Also got some Bill Cosby DVDs.

05/30/2067: After watching All the Bill Cosby DVDs, I almost welcome death by rubberstamp at the hands of a execution machine running Microsoft QuickDeath (c). Encountered issues upgrading to Silly Hippo. I need to have at least Hungry Hippo(14.0.0) installed but the nearest I got last time was Incontinent Panda (13.6.9) and Photosensitive snake (13.5.8). Mother accidentally powered up our old Windows machine, thankfully Peter was able to beat it to death with a 2 by 4. I hope it didn't send our usage data back to Microsoft.
I was trying to dereference Null Pointers before it was cool.

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Re: The Definitive Best Anti-Virus Thread
« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2010, 05:34:55 AM »
I'm way too tired to comment on all of that or even read all of it...

So then, if we were to define perfect as being 100% effective, or even downgraded to being 99% effective, we must conclude there is no perfect AV. And if there is, they have not let the world know about it yet.
Very true.  Of course, I also say that there is no such thing as perfection.  Even 100%-effective anti-virus wouldn't necessarily be perfect.  The term "perfect" is entirely subjective.
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An undefined problem has an infinite number of solutions.
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basumarpo1610



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    Re: The Definitive Best Anti-Virus Thread
    « Reply #24 on: March 20, 2010, 12:51:23 AM »
    i believe bit defender antivirus 2010 is the best one in recent time.............



    it wont slow down ur pc and work extremely well......


    « Last Edit: March 20, 2010, 12:18:40 PM by Fed »